#180 In this episode, Guy interviewed Sunny Jacobs, who was wrongly convicted of murder at age 27 and spent 17 years in prison, including five years on death row in solitary confinement. Sunny described the circumstances of her wrongful conviction, the trauma her family endured, and the flawed justice system that led to her death sentence. She shared how yoga, meditation, and prayer became her lifelines, helping her survive the psychological torment of isolation and maintain hope. Sunny explained her journey toward healing and forgiveness, emphasizing the importance of choice, resilience, and compassion even in the darkest moments.

After her release, Sunny faced the challenges of reentering society, reconnecting with her children, and building a new life, eventually dedicating herself to helping others who were wrongfully convicted. The conversation closed with reflections on the power of hope, the need for systemic change, and Sunny’s message of love, healing, and the importance of surrounding oneself with positive people.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you may also like: What 16 Years In A Thai Prison Taught Me About Happiness | T M Hoy

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About Sunny: The Sunny Center Foundation is a non-profit organization that helps people who have suffered the injustice of wrongful conviction, giving them support after they have been exonerated and released from prison.

It was established by Sunny Jacobs and Peter Pringle, both of whom were sentenced to death for crimes they did not commit. Sunny was released in 1992 after spending 17 years incarcerated in Florida, and Peter in Ireland in 1995 after 15 years in prison.

They met in 1998, fell in love, got married and became part of each other’s path to healing and happiness, using the practices of yoga, meditation and prayer – the same methods that each of them had used in prison to help them survive their ordeal.

In 2012 they began welcoming exonerees into their home. In 2014, the foundation was established and they were able to extend their assistance more broadly, using a unique holistic approach encompassing physical, mental and spiritual healing and ongoing support.

In 2018 they opened The Sunny Living Center, a housing complex in Tampa, Florida for exonerees. In 2020, their mission expanded to helping families and others who’ve been affected by the injustice of wrongful conviction as well as extending their healing techniques to the general public.

►Audio Version:

Key points with time stamp:

• (00:00) – Former Death-Row Inmate REVEALS the Hidden Power Within Us All!
• (00:59) – Meeting Sunny Jacobs
• (01:47) – Sunny’s Foundation and Mission
• (05:14) – The Wrongful Conviction
• (07:34) – Life on Death Row
• (16:34) – Finding Hope and Inner Strength
• (22:39) – The Power of Yoga and Meditation
• (29:02) – Maintaining Humor and Creativity
• (30:31) – Creative Coping Mechanisms in Prison
• (32:06) – Life Sentence and Prison Population
• (34:42) – Maintaining Sanity and Connection
• (37:15) – Reconnecting with Family
• (40:57) – Life After Release
• (46:19) – Reflections on Justice and Forgiveness
• (50:29) – Final Thoughts and Messages

Mentioned in this episode:

• Don Wood
• Bruce Lipton
• Stolen Time, Sunny’s book
• Swami

Sunny’s Website:
sunnycenter.org

Sunny and Peter’s Books:
sunnycenter.org/outreach/#books

About me:

My Instagram:
www.instagram.com/guyhlawrence/?hl=en

My website:
www.guylawrence.com.au
www.liveinflow.co

 

TRANSCRIPT

Guy: Guy here today, I interview Sonny Jacobs. Her and her husband were wrongly convicted for murder when she was 27 years old. She spent 17 years in prison, five years in solitary confinement and was fi, and finally all charges were dropped and released. This story, Hollywood couldn’t even script what she went through, and the place where she chose to choose life and live from the heart is incredible.

I promise you, you will be inspired if you enjoy these conversations on YouTube. I would really appreciate if you hit the subscribe button, hit the like, and please leave me a comment and let me know what you think of this episode. I read all my comments and it’s great to connect with you. Anyway, enjoy the show.

Guy: [00:01:00] Sunny, welcome to the podcast.

Sunny: Thank you very much, guys. Pleasure.

Guy: I just wanna give a shout out to Dr. Do, he mentioned your name in the conversation on the podcast, and I hadn’t heard of you. I was intrigued instantly and I thought, wow, I must reach out to Sonny. And I was just compelled. So for you to be here today, is deeply appreciated, Sonny. I can say that much Well,

Sunny: thank you. I shall thank Don Wood as well. He’s a very interesting man.

Guy: he is. And we had a wonderful conversation as well. with the software we’re using, if it gets a bit pixelated, just ’cause it’s record. Won’t take away anything from the end product at the end of the show Wanna mentioned that before, so that’s fine. I’m bit

Sunny: pixelated anyway.

Guy: So before we go back into, what’s been your journey and your life, I ask everyone the same question on the show wanted to start the same way today, and that is [00:02:00] if, we were at the intimate dinner party right now and you sat next to a complete stranger and they just said to you, what do you do for a living? what would you say?

Sunny: Oh, that’s a great question. I would say my husband and I run a foundation to help people who were wrongly convicted of crimes they didn’t commit when they released, so that they can begin the healing process. That’s what I would say.

Guy: researching today, listening to how you met Peter, even that is an incredible story in itself. Your husband, you know, Peter. Yes. Which I’d love to touch on, during the call, but what’s the general reaction you get from that? If somebody says, because this, you’re the first person I’ve heard of that actually does this.

Sunny: Well, actually until very recently, nobody else really was. there have been attempts to do it. often people who were wrongly convicted want to give back, [00:03:00] for having been blessed. The good fortune of having someone help them because without help, without pro bono help, meaning, willing to work for free to help somebody who they believe is wrongly convicted I dunno anyone who would be released. they feel so grateful for what they received and the help that they got, that they also wanna help others. often they go into, trying to help people, get their case overturned or in the legal part of it. Peter and I, that’s not our expertise.

Our expertise is in the healing part. We, before we met, each had taken the same path, which we found incredible, which was yoga, meditation, and prayer. This became my trinity while I was sentenced to death, when I had to transition from the nice, quiet death row, which I was the only one there, I was the only woman with a sense of death at the time. So it was pretty quiet there [00:04:00] into the population of the prison, which was to me just what I’d seen, with a death sentence. when I went into the prison population, that was another strange transition that I had to deal with. I, use those same, disciplines. when I was finally released 17 years later, I, again use those disciplines for that transition. and that’s what I do to this day. I use yoga, meditation, and prayer. that’s, how I learned to function in whatever world I was tossed into. And now know that that’s all part of my journey.

Guy: Yeah. Well, it, they help so many, I mean, yoga, meditation, and prayer. I, because I look at prayer as an intention and they’ve been so, so powerful to me over the years and, and have allowed me to have courage to lean into what my heart, wants to lead me to, and as opposed to suppressing that I, I’ve, I’m truly [00:05:00] learning and it is my mission to help inspire others to listen to that too.

Mm-hmm. And it’s been those very things, you know, like you said, to be able to reflect back and allow you to get through what you did. it’s. Just incredible. do you mind sharing a little bit about the wrong conviction Because if I’m not mistaken, you were, in Florida with your husband and two children and your car broke down. Is that correct? Yeah.

Sunny: And we had to ask, a friend of mine, basically it ended up with us being at the wrong place at the wrong time he ended up, panicking I can’t speak for him, but that’s how it seems to me, just panicked. Policeman police because he police, at the time he was on parole. I always say to people, when you accept a Lyft, you don’t ask to see the person’s driver’s license, you know, get into somebody’s car, you’d say, or [00:06:00] been in trouble, or might you be on trouble, or, I just, so, had I known that maybe I wouldn’t have accepted the Lyft, because he was afraid they were gonna take him back to prison. because he was on parole. he panicked. But anyway, he killed them. And then he took us hostage and drove us off in the police car. And which meant that in the passeng in the back seat, you can’t open the doors. From the inside.

My son was nine years old and my daughter was only 10 months old. She was nursing at the time, and I thought, oh, now I can get away. But the doors were locked. You can’t open them from the inside. So, we ended up, there was a roadblock. He tried to avoid the roadblock to evade capture. when he did, the police at the roadblock opened fire on the car. for the second time that day, I, covered the children we crashed. he was the only one who was [00:07:00] injured. He was shot in the leg. when we crashed, the police surrounded the car and we were all, taken into custody the children were put in a separate police car and taken away, supposedly to be taken care of by social services while we got everything straightened out. But, in actual fact, they weren’t, being cared for at all. my son was, interrogated and, tested, for gun residue and even the baby was from then on, it was like we were living in some nightmare.

Guy: you mentioned you were the first, lady to be put onto death row. And your, partner at the time, your husband, is it right? You went into, five years of isolation from that point after?

Sunny: Yes. what happened was, when we were taken in, the man who did the killing was in the hospital because he was injured and knew he was facing the, electric chair in Florida [00:08:00] at the time. And so he immediately asked to see the prosecutor and make a deal so that he could, avoid, being sentenced to death. he received three life sentences in exchange for his testimony against my husband. Jesse and me. although they had evidence of, probable innocence from the beginning, they gave him a lie detector test to justify giving him the plea bargain.

And they filed a report that said that he passed the lie detector test. But in actual fact, we found out 17 years later that he failed the lie detector test and the report was a false report. So they actually did know that they were making the deal with the killer, and yet they went ahead because it suited their ends because they wanted to, have three convictions [00:09:00] and the prosecutor ran for a higher office, That was the motivation and that’s what happened. Jesse was, sentenced to death in a trial that lasted four days Just on the testimony of the, man who made the bargain. my trial came later. It lasted two weeks. because I had never been in trouble, for anything violent before.

I was a mother of two young children. I was kind of a hippie, peace and love and a vegetarian. if you knew me you’d know I wouldn’t kill anybody. I was always saving animals. Or even one time I found a cricket who was missing a leg and I put in a little matchbox and had to take care of it. So that was who I was. So, when our friends heard. On radio because the TV was on all the news, you know, about what happened. And heard my name in connection with this terrible incident, something had to be really wrong.

And they called a lawyer and the [00:10:00] lawyer tried all day to find me and was told that they didn’t know where I was. about 10 30 at night, he showed up at the, jail and insisted on seeing me. he refused to leave until he did, so that’s when, I finally was allowed to see a lawyer I thought when you are arrested, you are entitled to a phone call. Everybody knows that. But when I asked for my phone call, they laughed at me and told me that’s just on television. And actually, they could without giving me phone call and by then they might. And then I knew they could do anything. finally when the lawyer did come to me the interrogation ended and, he inquired as to my treatment.

I was booked into the, jail as a prisoner after midnight Until then, I wasn’t even booked in. And there’s the supposed be followed when you’re, you’re supposed to be taken before [00:11:00] magistrate. That never, my trial, my trial two weeks, in the second week of the trial, they realized convincing. locating a young woman in the jail who had been arrested for a minor drugs charge with her boyfriend, they, convinced her that if she could help them to convict me, she and her boyfriend would be released the next day. But if not, then she would her life would be ruined

so she did what she had do, and she said that I had made a confession to her that I enjoyed it. And would do it again. So, anyway, the, the jury wasn’t convinced either, and so a number of questions, written questions to the judge. The judge had a former, highway and before he was a judge, so we [00:12:00] felt that he couldn’t possibly be neutral, he refused to recuse himself from the, case. In fact, he was the judge on all three of our cases. instead he instructed the jury as to the law, the way he wanted them to see it. as a result, they felt they had no option but to predict The law at the time. I know one of the questions was could they even consider a lesser degree of some sort, like an accomplice or something?

apparently they were not allowed to do that, which I wouldn’t have been anyway. So I was, convicted and then the is separate, took place they have to be unanimous in order to give you a death penalty. But one of the jurors wasn’t comfortable with the conviction, so he certainly wasn’t going to sense me to death or be bullied into it by the other jurors I, actually took the [00:13:00] time and locate me when he went in a magazine that I had been released and he and his wife rented a camp event. they came and found me in California he told me what happened in the jury room, and apologized He said the jury had been sequestered for two weeks were tired hungry and wanted to go home they wanted him to agree with them, to give me this death sentence because, they wanted to make an example of a woman to send a message to all those criminals out there that if you kill somebody in Florida, you’ll go to the electric chair.

because I was writing continually during the trial because I didn’t understand a lot of the language, My lawyer, was a lawyer that, really, he actually said. That he wasn’t gonna put up any defense because there was no evidence against me. So that would give him a better position in the closing [00:14:00] arguments, I didn’t do anything wrong. I have nothing to worry about. Right? the truth will set you free. Right? I didn’t know it take 17 more years. So, I did what my lawyer said, as a result, one juror decided he was not going to, be bullied and he voted for life.

So, that meant they couldn’t give the death, but the judge overruled and gave me the death penalty. in those days, that was allowed in certain states, Florida being one of them. But he would have to give a reason for having done so and he didn’t. I was sentenced to death. I became the only woman with a death sentence in the, United States at that time because there had been a moratorium on using the death penalty, for a while. So there were no women on death row, I was the only woman with the sentence of death. they, put me in the women’s [00:15:00] Maximum security prison, in a separate building, separated From the rest of the population I wasn’t allowed any contact with any other prisoners, and the guards were under instructions not to speak to me. that’s part of, their protection because you can’t become friendly with someone and then be expected to assist in taking that person’s life. So, the definitely actually affects everyone involved really.

I was put in this cell, in this building all by myself. I only got out of my cell twice a week for a brief shower, and then they would give me some prison clothes and I would be allowed out in a courtyard for about 15 minutes with a guard who didn’t speak to me. then I’d be taken back in, given my white pajamas with my number on it. And taken back to myself for another three or four days until, they’d come and get me again. So there were no phone calls. my cell was, six steps [00:16:00] from the door and if I reached out my arms, I could touch both. There was a metal shelf with a thin mattress on one side that was the bed and, sink and toilet combination, at the end.

And that was it. it was a solid metal door with a small, window opening through which they would look every hour to see what I was doing and write it down. That was where I was told I was to spend my life until they decided to take it from me. at first I got no letters. there were no phone calls. I just paced back and forth. I think it’s actually in a way the most important part of this story because it’s where I had to come face to face with, the possibility of my own death, of the possibility there might never see my children again. if I believed what they said there was no month.

Guy: had they given you a date at that point or were you just in this [00:17:00] unknown

Sunny: You’re sort of in limbo. they don’t give you a date. Now, when Peter, my husband, was sentenced to death, he was wrongly convicted in Ireland, they gave him a date right away, but, for me, there was no date set. in the US it can take years, before they actually set a date people have wanted to shorten that, but that would be. Another mistake because, there have been so many instances that we now with wrongful conviction, and if you shorten that time and you shorten the procedure, then hope that you figure that sooner. But what actually happens is that, the appeals process is not as, in depth and extensive. You could end up where, someone would be executed who was wrongly convicted and was innocent.

Guy: I’m curious to know, because I believe you were in that confinement for five years [00:18:00] before being released back into the main prison. During those five, you. Any kind of contact via letter to Jesse at all, or did you know anything that was going on? Is there a point where you would you kind of mid, mid peace with the fact that you were going to die and you just accepted it? Or how did the psychological part of that play out? I just can’t imagine. I struggled to put myself there and how I would deal with something like that, you know?

Sunny: Hmm. I did too. At first I wasn’t dealing with it. I was overwhelmed. when this whole thing happened, it was as if it was totally surreal. it wasn’t real. shaken me and woke me up having an awful, much more believable than what was I didn’t feel that anything in my life previously had prepared me. To deal with the situation that I was in, I was angry afraid, confused, and [00:19:00] hopeless for a while until one day. the only two books I was allowed at that point in time in my cell was a law book and a bible.

And the law book was incomprehensible to me at that time. the Bible was a book of wisdom that I used to open up to any page at that point, I wasn’t really sure if I believed in God anymore because, I didn’t think that if there was a God, that God could. My whole family was sentenced, my whole family suffered. my parents had a job getting my children back. It took them two weeks to get the baby, the 10 month old. And two months to get my 9-year-old son who was put into juvenile detention. I was told that was done as pressure on me to try to get me to say whatever they wanted me to say. after two months, they finally got a judge to release my son into their custody, he was so traumatized, taken to, interrogation, handcuffed behind his back, nine [00:20:00] years old with no representation to be interrogated that he had to be put in special school and he still to this day, suffers the effects of that trauma.

My, my daughter, the 10 old, well, she grew up without ever having known what it was like to be with her real family. fortunately, my parents were able to take care of them. by the time I was actually on in my death cell, the children were with my parents. So I knew at least they were safe and being well taken care of. when I finally started getting letters from my parents and from Jesse. that helped a lot, you know, and then Jessie would write me letters and try to cheer me up and tell me everything would be all right. And they’d, they’d figure out they made a mistake

But in the meantime, the reality was that I was sentenced to death and I was in this cell that I couldn’t leave and completely at the mercy of the merciless I [00:21:00] felt. I would open up the Bible and it would always say something I needed to hear. It’s a book of wisdom no matter what else you believe. One day I read something that told me they don’t really get to say when I die, and I realized that I didn’t have to accept their version of what was happening. It was true. It wasn’t that I was going into denial. In fact, I had a choice, which they made me feel that I had none.

I had a choice to believe either in hope or hopelessness. if I believed in what they said, then my situation was hopeless, and I may as well forget it. But if I believed that there was something out there in which I could depend. some energy, some force, whatever you wanna call it. Then there was hope. That one instant changed everything for me. Then comes the work, of course. I realized that it [00:22:00] didn’t have to be the way they said, and that I could turn myself into a sanctuary where I could do my spiritual work, which I didn’t have time for at home with two kids and husband, and use the time that I had, be it long or short to make myself the best person I could be so that when they figured out they made a mistake and sent me home, I’d have something left inside me to give to the children.

And if it was for some strange reason of karma that they were going to take my life, then it was. I felt to myself the best person that I could be in the time that I had left. So that’s what I decided to do and that’s what I did. a yoga class. I’d only seen Lius Yoga and You, and that was my me time. And it was a half an hour show Everything else could wait. I take my half hour and I do my yoga with Lius, so I about half dozen postures. But she said yoga would help you through any [00:23:00] situation. so I was like, okay, yoga, do your stuff.

If you’re gonna do it, now’s the time. I made my own schedule, my own routine. I, would do my yoga to clear the anxiety emotions and stress. then I would meditate to bring in energy from outside, and then prayer, hoping to receive some answers, Mm-hmm. But it connected me, it made me realize that this energy within me was coming from outside, that I was no a prisoner except physically in any other aspect of my life. I found a freedom that I never knew existed before. that was amazing. That was life changing. I could send my energy out every evening.

I sent my energy out to my children Because I didn’t have [00:24:00] windows, I couldn’t really tell time. there was breakfast, then lunch, then dinner, and then the long period from dinner to breakfast. That’s night. So that’s how I could tell that time. I thought it, thought it was bedtime. I would send my energy out to the children to send them my love to put them to bed. later I would send my energy out to Jesse and we’d swirl out in the atmosphere somewhere. I found a freedom that I never knew even existed before, and it was quite extraordinary.

Guy: Extraordinary. was that all within the first five years as well, that you’d found that and you’d That

Sunny: was within first five months? Yeah.

Guy: Oh, really? Wow.

Sunny: Oh, yeah. It couldn’t existed the way I was. For that long, I would’ve been destroyed, I decided I wasn’t gonna let them destroy me. They might kill me, but until they did take my life [00:25:00] or release me, I wasn’t gonna let them destroy me and who I was. I realized that I was a spirit here on my journey. even my little wherever I am, is my home, because this is my home. And wherever I’m, that means is I’m so, but what the, the next miraculous thing that happened as a result was not only one, because I was seeing myself as a spirit here on my journey. Then I also had to see the jailers as spirits here in their journey, and the judge and the prosecutor and the man who lied, and the woman who came into my trial and lied, they’re all spirits here on their journey too. So it allowed me to have compassion and to not see them as the enemy anymore. And as a matter of fact, I felt in some cases that I’d rather have my journey than theirs.

Guy: because on your website you had [00:26:00] healing and forgiveness were the keys to a happy life. Is that what allowed? Well,

Sunny: Forgiveness didn’t come till later. Because forgiveness is a big deal. it’s not something you just do and go, okay, I’ve done it. It’s done. No, you have to do it over and over again because things come up My children are grownups, and I know something happens in one of their lives. That is because of what happened to me and the effect that it had on them. And that upsets me, make me angry and I have to do it again. Breathe, clear it, clear the emotions, yoga, but I do it with the breath. Now, I don’t have to necessarily get down and do the forward bends for anger or the backward bends to open the heart chakra. of course they’re very helpful, but I’ve gotten to a point where I can do it all internally [00:27:00] now with my breath and my energy.

So, that’s what the postures are leading us to, where we can clear ourselves to the point where you can just do it with your breath and your energy. Because in the end, that’s all we have is our breath and that little bit of energy just before we transition again. I’ve learned to use my breath and energy to clear the anger or whatever it is. And then with the next breath, I bring in clear energy and send out forgiveness until the next time, because we’re human, you know? And I wouldn’t wanna be anything other because that connects me to everybody else. I don’t think every what they call perfection, because it’s not for this world. We are perfect in our imperfections.

Guy: Yeah. I love it. I love it. Your energy. Oh, it’s incredible. Sunny. did you ever think you were getting [00:28:00] out or did you just accept it and help? Like, ’cause clearly you connected to the greater source And there was a, like you said, inner acceptance and the strength that came within you saying you, it’s like, Bruce Lip and I keep hearing his quote, but he said, not, knowledge is power, but knowledge of self is self-empowerment. And it felt like you became self-empowered in there

Sunny: Well, I didn’t ever accept it. I had to accept the possibility. they had all the power, they just didn’t know about my special power. it was a possibility and I had to accept that that was possibility, but it also was just as possible because I had chosen to believe in hope that they might make a mistake and send me home. And so, like I said, either way, the best thing I could do was to make myself the best person that I could be in the meantime. So that’s basically how I dealt with it. prepare for the worst and hope for the best. [00:29:00] So that’s how I lived. and that changed the way I saw things myself.

It’s like I was able to have humor again, humor is very important. It’s very underrated, but it’s very important to have humor and to be creative. Even if you’re sentenced to death. There’s even more. So there’s a need to create, if you’ve seen VCV from Vendetta. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That’s one of my favorite movies, so when she finds the little note and the crack in the wall, it’s from the woman who, was in there previously and she gets determined she’s gonna make it. it was kind of like that. I became whatever I was gonna, they wouldn’t destroy me anyway. I used to, like for instance, I started to see when they came every single hour and write down,

I could hear footsteps coming down the hall. I was like, here comes my entertainment. the face would show up in the little window and I could make [00:30:00] them write down whatever I wanted I had power, they had to write down whatever I was doing I could stand up in the middle of the cell and spin around in circles, and they’d have to write that down. one time I laid down on the floor, I put my hands behind my bathing and had to write that down. I discovered I did have a little bit of power after all, people are the same everywhere. Prison is like a microcosm of the outside. there was one very nice, guard. when no other guards were around, she’d sometimes bring me an extra cup of coffee in the morning,

And one time she gave me, a newspaper. That was amazing. And so I thought, now what can I do with this newspaper? I mean, this was a resource I hadn’t had before. And so I thought back, like, what did the people long ago, like the native people and even back further the cave people, [00:31:00] what did they do? I tore the newspaper into strips wove them together and I made a little mat and I covered the toilet. Didn’t have looking at a toilet for the rest of my life. That was great. I had control now, power and control. I could have something over my environment. So then I made another mat that I could sit on the floor when I didn’t have to do everything sitting on my bed like a sick person.

And so they’d bring the food and slide it through a slot in the door, sit on it. And I had picture from the magazine section of, a, a beautiful display of vegetarian still. So it was like, eggplant, tomatoes and it was gorgeous. So I would paste that up, a toothpaste on the back of the door, and I’d sit and eat this indescribable stuff. Looking at that. It was amazing. with a little [00:32:00] humor and a little creativity, you can go a long way. it just changed everything for me. It was amazing.

Guy: how long were you in prison for and at what point did you realize that you think, wow, I might be getting out here. Things are changing.

Sunny: in the first five years I was sentenced to death and my first appeal came up as a result of my first appeal they changed my sentence. the conviction remained, they changed my sentence because the judge had not given a proper reason for overruling the jury. And my appointed lawyer said he wasn’t prepared to discuss the death penalty. So they changed my sentence. that meant I had to go into the prison population, which in some ways was great.

I was the happiest prisoner. I could talk to people, I could go outta myself. it was amazing. I talked so much for the first three days that I lost my voice [00:33:00] entirely because your, your voice, I mean, it’s a muscle and if it atrophies, if you don’t use it. after not speaking much for five years, all that talking did my voice in. In the, orientation building after my sentence changed it was fun to run up and down the stairs until, the guard told me no more. I ran back to my cell, it was an amazing experience.

And then, they gave me a job in the kitchen, I guess, because they thought, because I was a vegetarian, I would know something about food. some bureaucrats came in and when they found out I was working in the kitchen, they not be allowed to work in the kitchen anymore. So I, I just was allowed to clean. Clean the library, clean the education building but that was okay because I would fold the hand towels nicely, put little messages on, go around the toilet seat to show that it had been [00:34:00] cleaned. leave birthday messages for staff members when I knew it was their birthday.

So whatever it was joyful, you know, it’s a choice. And I knew that you always have a choice, even in your darkest moments when it seems like there’s no way, but you have a choice. Smile on your face, or you can go down screaming. So it’s your choice. That’s one of my secret weapons.

Guy: Yeah. And it’s, it’s a mess that we, we all need to hear. We always have a choice, you know, some of the things that we get caught up on in our daily life and get stuck on. where’s the heart of it all,

Sunny: after a couple of years, they moved me to a different newer prison that was opened up for women I had a bigger cell then, which was quite nice. But it was in the, hospital area of the prison. again, I was totally isolated, but, I was allowed [00:35:00] to have a watch. That was a big deal. ’cause I could see time, then I could see hours, you know, it wasn’t just breakfast, lunch, dinner, and the long time in between.

And so, that watch became another one of my, secret weapons because it’s not healthy to avoid being emotional. Anger has a purpose. it can help you through a tough situation, but staying angry for too long can be toxic. you need. to be able to deal with it and have tools to let it go. the watch, helped me to invent the five minute rule. things would happen to really piss you off, really make you justifiably angry. I’d go, fine. This might be the last day of my life because, none of us know what that will be. you could walk outside living in a lovely condo the whole building collapses, like happened last week it can happen anytime. I decided that [00:36:00] whatever made me angry or whoever it was, didn’t deserve to ruin what might be the last day of life.

So I look at the watch, five minutes, yell, scream, bang on the walls, whatever it took. And then, okay, five minutes is up. That’s it. Now, I’ll think of recipes that I’ll cook for my children when I get home, or I’ll think of a song that makes me happy, a place I always, or some place I had been, that always was nice for me or of my cat or whatever. in those days I would do some yoga poses to help me deal with it. if it came back, maybe it needed another five minutes and I would give it that. some things I’ve decided are worth sometimes. 15 minutes. That’s okay. But You are in charge of how long that emotion lasts.

The emotion is not in charge of you. That’s huge. So of course you have to give it some time. [00:37:00] You have to honor and respect those emotions and give them some vent and then that’s enough. That’s it. Now it’s time to yep. And that became the basis of, forgive me. do you know how during that time how Jesse was coping? Like, was there much communication between the pair of you? I’m glad you asked. We wrote every day, every single day that was what I did all through the day. I’d start a letter with the date, and then I’d put, 9:00 AM 9 25, 11 o’clock all through the day.

I would write to him and he would do the same for me. we wrote every day until he was, executed, that was huge. After my sentence was changed I was put into the population. I had, art supplies. paints and pastel chalks, I would go out in the evening and [00:38:00] do a painting of the sunset, or the sky, and I would use that for my letter I always kept up that practice of meditation. Every evening I meditated to send love to my children, and every night at 11 o’clock when all the prisons in the whole state would be quiet, absolutely quiet, and everybody have to sit on the bed for count time, that’s when I would meditate and send myself out into the atmosphere to meet Jesse.

And we’d swir around there together for a while before bed. Hmm. So I always kept up that practice and when the children were able to visit with my parents, which was only four times a year I taught them about the energy and meditating and the feeling they have when we’re together. That’s my energy. And when you feel that energy, That’s me sending you my love. I taught them to meditate and recognize the feeling of each other’s energy

Guy: Your relationship with your children? how [00:39:00] old were you when you went into prison and how old were you when you came out?

Sunny: was 27. Sometimes I say 28. But anyway, I was 27, 28 years old. my son was nine, my daughter was 10 months old. when I was released 17 years later, my son was a grown man with a three and a half year old daughter of his own. And my daughter, when she was 15, her father was executed. Jesse was executed, and it was a very horrible execution. the chair malfunctioned and instead of dying, he caught fire and it was horrendous. when she heard about what happened to him, she tried.

And her foster family, because my parents died in a plane crash a year after my sentence was changed from death to life, decided that they could finally take a vacation, the plane crashed and they died. So the children became orphans [00:40:00] again. my son, after about a year or so, he went out on his own. But my daughter, she was only seven when they died. So she went into foster care and when Jesse was executed and she was 15, they didn’t know what to do because there is no help for the, families or children of people who were sentenced to death. they decided to send her to a school for children with behavioral and emotional problems, where usually children are sentenced by a court. she was locked up until she was 18 years old in that place. I basically lost touch with the children at that point. it was very, very difficult.

So when I was released, my daughter, Christina, was still in that very restrictive school where I was not allowed any contact. I wasn’t even allowed to write her a letter. It was completely cut off from her and her from me. when I was released, I was released [00:41:00] with, a cardboard box with everything I owned in the world. Which wasn’t much and all my writing, which I had been sending out through the years, so I at least had that. my, childhood friend who had become involved in the end, trying to help the lawyers, with my appeals, her name is Mickey. She supported me to see my son and meet my granddaughter. because I wasn’t able to cross the street. from prison where you’re not even allowed to run to trying to deal with cars going by at 40 miles an hour. I couldn’t manage all that. Markets were totally overwhelming. all the choices you have to make.

I was kind of an alien. That’s how I felt. I felt like an alien who had been dropped down on earth again. I was just pretending to be like everybody else, but I wasn’t. I’m still okay now. she took me to [00:42:00] visit my son and his wife and, spend some time with my granddaughter Claudia, who said, grandma, I know why you never visited me because you were lost. And I said, yes, Claudia, I was, but I’ll never be lost again. And then, I read her story and she went to sleep with me. And it was just the most beautiful moment. Nikki took me up to visit my daughter, Christina, who was still locked up. the school arranged a confrontation. because she’d been mad at me because she thought I lied, because I always said, I’ll be home by Christmas.

I’ll be home by your birthday. I’ll be home by your graduation. I’ll be home. And I never came home. I never thought it would take so long. she said to them, I was mad, but I’m not mad anymore because she’s here. can I introduce her to my friends? she took me and introduced me to her friends and it was really great. And then, I accepted my friend’s invitation to go live in Los [00:43:00] Angeles, California with them because my son told me I would always have a home with him and his family. he had lost all faith in society and was living way out in the woods but that gave me the courage to go try out Los Angeles with my friends, because I knew I could always retreat to my son’s little house in the woods.

So that’s what I did. And I went to Los Angeles to live with them. I lived with them for about a year because I had no money. I couldn’t get a place of my own. I had no clothes except for what I brought from the prison. Two white shirts, two pairs of jeans, six pairs of underwear, and two pairs of shoes. So I lived with them myself, a yoga job, because nobody else would hire me. I was 45 years old when I came out. When I went in, I was a young mother, a wife and a daughter, and I was 27 years old when I came out, I was a widow, an orphan, and a grandmother,

[00:44:00] Nobody’s hiring 45-year-old women. With my work record, So, but myself doing what I knew to do because, when I was released from death row and everybody saw how healthy I was, the other prisoners would ask me, what did you do to stay healthy? And I would show them on the weekends, I’d show them yoga, and it worked. I ended up teaching yoga in the prison for all the years I was there. And, in the end, in the end, about two years before I was finally released.

Local junior college and got a yoga teacher in because they finally noticed there was gonna kiss in yoga. And when the yoga teacher saw what we were doing, she brought the swami. Just so happened there was a swami nearby. How does that happen? And 82-year-old Rhonda came in became my mentor and teacher, and she would use me as a demonstrator. And she was fine tuning my practice. [00:45:00] that’s when I found out we were really doing yoga the right way, moving energy and using the breath. it was fantastic. she certified me to teach just before I was released. Wow. I got a job teaching yoga in a local community center.

And then I would do whatever I could, whatever odd job anybody had for me, because my friends told their friends, about my situation. people would hire me to pack up their house if they were moving babysit walk their dog anything. then finally when my daughter was released from that school, after about a year, she came to me and we got an apartment together we had to try four different times to make it work because I was no longer entitled to be her mother. Who was I a stranger? She didn’t know me. In fact, she’d been told most of her life that we were guilty and the foster family even saved the news [00:46:00] clippings to show her. When she got older that even though we always said we were innocent. Look, it’s written in the papers, so it must be true. They’re guilty. so she grew up not knowing what to think and thinking that she probably would end up in prison too, because she was told she had bad genes from us.

Guy: I have to ask you the people that made the conviction and have been involved, has anyone been held accountable for what they’ve done since? It’s

Sunny: a good question, a fair question, and the answer is no, and they never are. I’ve heard of one or two cases in recent years where, a prosecutor was, given maybe sentence suspended sentence. And we know now that sometimes police are being held accountable. I received an email from someone who said they had been a police, person during that time kept their mouth shut on cases where things were done wrong [00:47:00] now, they’re, an investigator and, work on some of the cases they participated in wrongly years ago, to right the wrongs and to make sure that wrongful convictions don’t happen as a result anymore.

And that person apologized to me first apology I’ve ever received A brave person. A good person. Wow. But nobody ever has that’s part of the problem where wrongful convictions happen because, there are no consequences. A prosecutor can do whatever they want and there are no consequences. They can say, like in mine, I didn’t know it was gonna be important, otherwise I would’ve given you that information. No consequence. So why not do it anyway? we all know there are no consequences. So they do what they wanna do and it’s not always with malice. Sometimes they really believe there’s this thing that we now call, cognitive bias. you believe a certain thing. [00:48:00] You believe that that’s true. And so you look for whatever is going to. What you believe and you tend to ignore or not think about what doesn’t prove what you believe, even if you find out later, if I admit I’m wrong, I’ll be fired, I’ll get sued.

Therefore, it happens and nobody gets in trouble for it. that’s something in the justice system, not just in America, everywhere. Peter and I have been to 13 countries, it’s the same everywhere, including Kazakhstan, including, Taiwan. I haven’t been there yet. all through Europe. America, Canada, Australia. It’s the same. My book was published by, Random House and the Australian, region made it their book of the year. it was about 2007. My book was Book of the Year in Australia. it’s been a very interesting journey, but we found that it’s the same everywhere and the reason [00:49:00] human nature.

Guy: Yeah. I was gonna say it’s human nature. The human condition. I just wanna ask you a couple of questions because I’m aware of the time couldn’t script this. Like, it’s incredible your journey and what you’ve been on. When you look back upon it now, do you try to make.

Sunny: who makes sense of their life really. You can follow the thread and there’s a theme, you know, through it, and there’s a learning curve through it. I should tell you also that part of this learning and theme is that, the next one to come, my son also came to live with us. After a while, his marriage broke up and he and his daughter came and we became a family again, By then, even my granddaughter, was bigger than me. we found a way to come back together again. And, to forgive. That was the legacy I wanted to leave to my children. if you wanna make sense of it, that’s what makes sense of it, I could [00:50:00] leave a legacy of anger and retribution or I could leave a legacy of happiness joy healing and forgiveness. that was what I chose to leave.

And that’s the way I chose to live my life. And that’s what I shared with them. to the extent that each of them is able at this point in their life, they’ve done so. I think they’re amazing. my children, they’ve really done well with the life that they were given. each of us is here on our own journey all these things that happened to us, the bad, the ugly, the divine. It’s all part of your journey. dependent on the choices that you make throughout your journey, I believe that the purpose is to learn or accomplish something that we came to accomplish

Then you get to transition again and move on. I think it’s really important to share something that I learned [00:51:00] recently because when you get to a certain age, you experience more and more people, leaving the planet, transitioning away from this life. I decided that because we always do have a choice, no matter how my end is, with that last breath, I’m gonna fill myself up with as much love as I possibly can and send it out. And that’s how I’m gonna go. I have that choice. We have that power. I think that’s important to share, especially now through, the times and, people experiencing so much. I think it’s very empowering and calming. It gives you a sense of peace that, with that very last breath, I can decide. thank you for sharing. It truly is. I, you know, I, I’ve debating whether I, but I will anyway, because there’s one question asked everyone on the show, with everything we’ve covered today, [00:52:00] and imagine this right now, been, we’ve

Guy: captivated from start ish, I assure you. is there anything you’d like to lead them to listen to, to ponder on all we’ve covered?

Sunny: Well, I do wanna say that, my choices, when I was young weren’t that great. maybe it was part of my journey, but I didn’t make such great choices. It’s important to surround yourself with positive people. sometimes we have toxic people in our life, but we have to have them there. They might be people you work with or people in your own family, people who drain energy instead of giving energy,

That’s just who they’re, and how they’re, and that’s their journey. but I create boundaries, distance, so that I can deal with those people, but they don’t come to my closest, most intimate circle, the [00:53:00] most intimate person with me, of course, is my husband Peter now, and one other friend. we’ve developed a system of sharing. the reason my relationship worked with Peter is because we connected on spiritual level about how we looked or what music we liked, or, what food we ate. It was about the deeper things, the, the things that really important.

Integrity, respect, he loves children. And, that was that. I think that’s what made it work. we’ve developed a system of sharing where, if something bothers me that he’s doing, I can say, I would like to share something with you. that means that it’s not a discussion. but neither is it an [00:54:00] accusation, it’s a me statement. When you use a certain tone of voice or certain words, it makes me feel like when I was back in prison and I know you wouldn’t want to do that.

So I just thought you should know. Now you can translate that into any situation in your life. if somebody, is impatient. You could say, you know, when I feel rushed, I get this very, upsetting feeling inside me. it makes me feel, afraid or whatever it is for you. and I just thought you should know that. then the person can say, would you like me to respond or can I respond? And you can say, no, no, I don’t want right now. And what happens, what happens with me and Peter is maybe later he’ll say, I was thinking about what you said, and I’m going to try to not do that or say that anymore.

Thank you. And that’s it. it really helps. so I think you can develop ways of being in yourself [00:55:00] and of communicating with others, but it’s always positive. Even something negative can be dealt with in a positive way because it’s to make it better. not just to express whatever it is that you’re feeling at the time. Yeah. it can be done in a nice way. And you can always use the five minute rule beforehand to vent first,

Guy: my children were the first ones to teach me that because they said sometimes my energy would make them feel upset I understood it as putting out too much energy, too strong.

Sunny: So I asked them to tell me when they felt that, and they would say, mom, you’re doing it. I go in the other room and just breathe. Release the emotion or take the energy down a level fill myself up with love again. Come out and start over. It only takes a couple of breaths, I make videos now. I don’t do podcasts, but I’m thinking [00:56:00] about it. I make videos of tips and stories, and put them on my YouTube to share with people in this age of Zoom I don’t feel virtual. I feel like I’ve met you and exchanged energy I don’t feel like that’s virtual, just not physical.

Guy: There’s a reason why I do this every week, to talk to amazing people like yourself it’s connecting. It certainly is. and I love it. I’ll be To link to your website, and I believe your book is available on your website as well,

Sunny: Yeah. You can get it on Amazon, but it’ll cost you a fortune if you get it through the website, we can sign it before we send it out.

Guy: That’d be amazing. I just hope anyone listening today will come over and check you out and your YouTube and everything because, you’re an amazing woman and I’ve getting to know you a little bit more today and thank coming on. Appreciate it. That’s my heart. Thank you.

Sunny: I’ve been to Australia before and that’s where my son lives. Oh wow. My son lives there. Yes. I’m hoping that this might [00:57:00] lead to me getting invited back to Australia again so I can visit him and my granddaughter So there you go.

Guy: lemme know when you’re coming out.

Sunny: that would be the gift for telling my story this time. That would be very nice.

Guy: There you go.

Sunny: A pleasure. Thanks. Bye.