#190 There will be times in anyone’s life when a change in perspective is all that is needed to invite more joy into their lives. And my conversation today with the amazing Saje Dyer is centred all around that change. Saje is an author, business owner, and educator who co-authored a book entitled the Knowing with her sister Serena Dyer Pisoni, in which they provide 11 lessons that are guaranteed to change your perspective on life.
During our conversation today, we talk about the victim mentality, growing from difficult experiences, moving through grief, and embodying positive spiritual and mental change as parents. If you are feeling stuck, and or searching for your purpose in life, then this is the episode for you.
“I think the way to transition from being a hostage to your circumstances to a host to miracles, is to shift your perception.”
If you enjoyed this podcast, you may also like: Living Life Fearlessly | Anita Moorjani
About Saje: Saje Dyer is a 31 year-old woman from New York City. Saje grew up in Boca Raton, FL and moved to New York where she graduated from NYU with a master’s degree in psychology. She is the co-author of the new book, The Knowing, which explores how she was able to return to her the teachings of her father, Dr. Wayne Dyer after he passed away.
She has published a children’s book titled “Goodbye Bumps!” that tells the true story of how she was able to heal herself as a child through the power of the mind. Saje often traveled with her Dad, to speak to his audiences and she recently appeared on his PBS special. Saje is a mother to her little boy Julian and she enjoys traveling, learning, and spending time with loved ones. Being the youngest of 8 children, family is and always has been an important part of her life.
Key points with time stamp:
- Wayne Dyer’s daughter, Saje: The Quiet Urges of Your Soul (00:00)
- Who is Saje Dyer? (00:13)
- The reception of The Knowing (01:30)
- Stepping into Wayne Dyer’s shoes? (03:38)
- Fear-based thinking and its grip on grief (07:38)
- Looking for signs after losing a loved one (20:23)
- What does “The Knowing” mean? (23:33)
- How can you learn from difficult experiences? (25:13)
- The effects of focusing on loss (31:14)
- Bringing your purpose to what you do (35:22)
- Relaxing into your circumstances (36:24)
- How to support your children in finding themselves (39:43)
- Saje’s intentions for The Knowing (43:34)
- Daily practices to shift your energy (44:56)
- “Take the Path of Least Resistance” (47:15)
Mentioned in this episode:
- Wayne Dyer
- The Knowing, 2021. The book co-authored by Saje
- Serena Dyer Pisoni
- The Heal Podcast
- Anita Moorjani
- Khalil Gibran
- Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life, 2007. A Book by Wayne Dyer
- Lee Ann Womack
Please note, this is an automated transcript so it is not 100% accurate.
Beautiful, saje, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much. It’s nice to be here.
I asked everyone on the show, if you were at an intimate dinner party right now, and you sat next to a complete stranger. And they asked you what you did for a living? What would you say?
Oh, you know, I, I get this question a lot. And it’s kind of hard to answer because I juggle a lot of things. I’m a mom. First and foremost, I have a two and a half year old and a three month old. So they take up most of my time. But I also my husband, and I own a restaurant and we opened it, we own a restaurant in Manhattan in New York. And we opened it before we had kids. So I used to work there in person all the time and do a lot of the accounting stuff as well. But now I don’t work there in person anymore. But I do a lot of work from home for that. So the accounting side of things and the bookkeeping and permitting and all that stuff. And then I also write my wrote a book with my sister, the knowing, and we’ve been doing a lot of interviews on it. We’ve done some speaking engagements before the book came out now with COVID. We haven’t done any in person speaking engagements yet, but that’s definitely on the horizon. And yeah, so I’m, I juggle those three things mostly.
Yeah, amazing, amazing, a busy, busy life. Why? How is how’s the book been received so far? To sort of curiosity, when did it come out?
You know, it came out may 11. of this year, and it was a, it was actually a really cool date. Because our it we didn’t pick the date or publishing company selected the date. And it was the day after my dad’s birthday, which was May 10, it would have been his 81st birthday. It was also Mother’s Day in the US. And there was one other thing that I can’t think of, but anyway, it was just a it was a cool date that they ended up selecting, it was like a meaningful weekend for us. And in these past few months since it came out. It’s been really well received. We’ve had, we’re on our third printing with the publishing company. But more than that, I have received so many heartfelt messages from people that I know and that I don’t know, telling us how much the book impacted them. How they, you know, there have been people who said, I was sceptical to read this because I was a fan of your dad’s. But I, you know, couldn’t imagine that his daughters could produce something that would level up and they said, it’s not so much that it levelled up, it’s just our own take on it, you know, and it provided an insight to them that was meaningful. So yeah, it’s been great. It’s been so wonderful to hear people. I had somebody tell me the other day that they she gave, my friend gave a copy to her friend. And her friend read the book and said that she had had a bad relationship with her father majority of her life, and was not speaking to him. She’s an adult now. And they haven’t spoken in years. And after reading it, she reached out to him. And she gave him a copy of the book. And he read it, and now they’re working on their relationship. And they’re speaking again, and they’re, you know, they’re working things out. And yeah, I know, just things like that. I mean, it moves me so much to think that the work that we put into this is impacting people’s lives in a positive way. So
yeah, no, fantastic. Good. Anya, I mean, I had stumbled across you on the heal podcast, because I had Kelly on the show, a couple of years back and and I was like, Oh, you know, and I really enjoyed what you had to say, hence why I reached out and said, you’d come on the show. Yeah, yeah. It’s powerful, isn’t it? And I’m intrigued, just listening to what you were saying there. When you were releasing the book then, for yourself personally, were there any concerns because your dad was so well known? And he had written so many books and yours, his daughter now bringing her peace into the world? Was there any concerns in yourself around that? Or was it like no, I’m ready. I’m bringing my my own identity kind of thing.
You know, I didn’t really feel concerned about that, because I don’t view it as some people have said, Oh, you’re stepping into your father’s shoes. You’re carrying on his legacy. I don’t think of it that way. I’m carrying on his legacy, maybe a little bit but I don’t feel that I’m stepping into his shoes. His shoes are huge. You know, I don’t intend to fill his shoes. I’m, you know, almost 32 years old and he had a whole lifetime of us incredible career and studying and all the learning that he did, and I’m not there and I’m, you know, I’m younger, and I Just wanted to put on paper, the things that because when I lost my dad when he passed away, it was very sudden. And it was, for me, it was really the first time in my life that I experienced a profound loss like that. And it was the first time that I was really struggling and with what I believed in what you know, I grew up with my father’s teachings and heard them all the time, but they never really applied to me in the way that they did after he died. So for the first time, I was sort of challenged to, could I follow the things my dad taught, or was I just going to believe and feel that he was gone and that death is final, it’s the end. And so I felt like I was at that crossroads and I eventually decided to dive into my dad’s works and and luckily for me, I mean, we people lose people all the time. And they are left really with nothing but their memories and photos and things like that. But I have hours and hours and hours of recorded lectures and, you know, YouTube videos and books on tape or, and, and books I can read of my dad’s that I could dive into even when he’s not here anymore. And I started to do that. And then I really tried to live from that place for the first time in my life, and I and, and miracles started to take place, I mean, and I had a whole I had a complete shift and how I perceive death in general, how I perceived his death, how I perceive my own eventual death, and how I perceive life. And I just started to write about it because I’ve, you know, I realised that I had a unique perspective, because I was raised on these principles, a lot of people have to, at some point in their life, seek out spirituality. But from from day one, we’ve, I’ve been exposed to the teachings that my dad raised us on. So I, I felt like I had a unique perspective. And I wanted to write down my experiences. And eventually I didn’t intend to write a book when I started writing, but it eventually turned into a book and it turns out my sister Serena was also being called to write during this time. And so, at a certain point, we talked about that, and we compared some notes and we realised, you know, why don’t we put this together and make a book? And that’s kind of how it started. Yeah, beautiful.
Yeah, you’re sparking so many questions and we because the, I’ll go in this direction because I often think about on my own journey, okay, I’m like I grew up in the valleys of Wales. You know, it was it was it was it was a tough life hard hard. Yeah, hard upbringing. You know, I was playing rugby.
I’ve actually been to Wales. Oh yeah. Yeah.
I’m sure I’m sure it was kind to you. I’m sure it was.
It was beautiful. It was beautiful. I didn’t expect it to be as beautiful as it was but but I only spent a couple days there so
right okay, yeah, no it is it is a stunning place you know and but I guess the point I’m making is that growing up I went into rugby at a very young age of six or seven and it was the right fit actually kept me on the straight and narrow to a degree well you know, there was a lot of I guess temptation into the wrong things around me constantly, you know, and I had no idea of spirituality I mean, I never went to church I wasn’t brought up religious I had very loving parents fortunately which was which I think got me through it all. But I just didn’t I wasn’t aware of any of this existed but there was always something in me that was pulling me to it that fortunately I think I could hear enough to listen to to act from that place as opposed just from the mind of what everyone was considering to be telling me. So I find it fascinating from your perspective and I’d love to know more because you actually grew up from de dot into a very spiritual family you know and and and I just wonder what was that like for you? was it was it a case of yet you’re so accustomed to it it might be in part of you just feeling it was just philosophy but you would go and go about it or was it really ingrained in you in a way that it was so normal that when you look upon the outside world to everyone else you like we’re all these crazy guys doing? You know, it’s you know, there’s, there’s this aspect, right to,
you know, ironically, it was a little bit of both because, like I kind of touched on I had Experienced, I had a pretty smooth sailing life, I had a wonderful family, a supportive family, I grew up in a nice area. So I hadn’t experienced anything that challenged my beliefs until my dad died when I was 25. And it was very sad. And I had been with him actually in Australia, and New Zealand, the three weeks before you and before he passed away, we we flew back, I flew back to the east coast of to New York, and he flew back to Hawaii. And he died 48 hours later, I had just been with him for three weeks, he was on a speaking tour, he was so full of life, he was giving, you know, full day lectures, full weekend lectures, I sat through all of them. So I was really immersed in his teachings in the days that led up to him, leaving his physical. And so when I was sitting in those lectures, and you know, throughout my whole life, as I sat through his lectures, and just had him as my father, I thought what he talked about was inspiring and beautiful. And I wanted to believe in it, but I never, I never was challenged before that. So when it came to this point in my life where I was feeling challenged, you know, because when you lose somebody, it feels like they’re gone. Initially. I mean, it’s just so I just kept thinking, like, when I would be in these throes of grief, I would have this thought of just call that, you know, because that’s what you want to do so badly. And then you realise that you you’re never going to do that again. And it’s so heartbreaking. And going through that pain, and that grief, I at first just felt like he’s gone. I mean, there’s no way he’s ever going to be with me in a way that feels the way that it used to that feels, where I’m going to know that he’s there and things like that. And all I could think about was the never against the should haves, the could haves. Fear Based Thinking basically is what I came to realise. until it got to a certain point where I felt like I was torturing myself with these kinds of thoughts. And I, I said to myself one day, okay, sage, you’re never gonna call that again. But you have a lifetime of knowing him of, you know, being loved by him speaking to him, calling him when you’re having problems and on and on. What would he say to you, you know, if you could speak to him right now. And I felt like for the first time I got like, I felt connected to him, you know, for the first time and I felt like I could hear him saying to me a story that I had heard him say many times on this trip in Australia, in fact, it’s a story about a man whose son goes off to war. And one day the father gets a knock on his door, and it’s somebody knocking on his door to tell him that his son had passed away and more and he had died. And that night, the father went into the town and he went to a party, and he was dancing, and celebrating and a neighbour who knew what had happened, who knew that his son had just died that day? Or that he just learned of it that day, came up to him and said, I don’t understand how could you be dancing, you just found out that your son passed away. And he responded, sooner or later, I’m going to have to move on from this or it’s going to kill me. And I’m just choosing sooner. And I heard my dad tell that story a million times. And as I asked him for help, that’s what I thought of. That’s what came into my mind. And I felt like I was sort of communicating with him in a way I felt connected to him. Like he was telling me giving me permission to choose sooner. It doesn’t mean and I think that that story is a metaphor. It’s not doesn’t mean you stop grieving in one day, because grieving is important and those feelings are important. Important. It’s just it was for me it was permission to feel joy. While I grieved permission to raise my vibration. You know, I didn’t have to say stay stuck, stay down stay. You know, in this sorrow of grief, I could go to the places of joy at times too. And and when I started to do that, when I gave myself permission to do that, I felt more connected to my dad. And I felt like I could feel his energy I felt Not only that, though, I started to recognise and encounter some miraculous like signs and synchronicities and I started to recognise that and reflect on things that happened before he died. That let me know that he knew his time was coming and that his death was you know in …. Perfect divine timing. I remember him telling us speaking about one time when I was there about how you know, we all come here to this earth with a round trip ticket. And we celebrate so much the first leg of that trip, you know, a birthday, we celebrate it for our whole lives our birthday. You know, when a baby is born, it’s new life. It’s exciting. We don’t question it. But then comes the day, but your, you know, return ticket is called do and, and we leave and you say, you know, this is our home, this is the classroom here on Earth, and we leave to go home. And I really do believe that I think we come here to learn and to grow. And then when we leave, we go home and we know it. But anyway, but the idea that we have this round trip ticket and and that we should try not to question the day that we are called to go back home because it can be celebrated in the same way that the birthday is celebrated. It’s a perfect lead divined divinely orchestrated event. And when I started to get in touch with the that idea, you know, that that his death was on time, I didn’t need to question it. I didn’t need to wonder what if I had been there with him? You know, my dad had a heart attack in his in a hotel room. And what if I had been there? What if he had had had the heart attack when we were in Australia, and I was staying right next door to him in a hotel. And we could have, you know, so many thoughts like that, I started to let go of those kinds of thoughts and to accept and, and to know, in my heart that it was his perfect timing, a couple really cool synchronistic events. I mean, one of them was that the the, my father, I was fortunate enough to have a father who paid for my college education. And after college, I decided to get a master’s degree. And he said that he would also pay for that, which was, you know, I realised how fortunate I am. So it was the, my dad had a way of paying for all of his kids tuition. And that was to give a check for to me personally, or to whoever it was, for the tuition and for the living expenses for that whole semester. And we were to, you know, pay the tuition to the school and then use the rest of the money to live off of for the semester. And he had done it that exact way for his eighth child I’m the youngest. So for all eight of us, he had paid our college tuition this exact same way. And the so in January, before, before my master’s programme was starting, he gave me a check for the, for the semester for tuition, and, you know, to live off of the way we had always done it, January of 2015. And then in February of 2015, like two weeks later or less, he called me and he said, sage, I just want you to know that I just mailed you a check for your remaining four semesters at NYU. And I want you to deposit that check and make sure that you budget it correctly, because it’s got to last you a long time. And he was very serious when he was saying this to me very sombre, and I said that, why are you doing that? That’s so much money. You know, I live in New York City, I go, I went to NYU, it was a lot of money, more money than I had ever even thought of having at one time. And he said, saje, I insist that you take the money and you deposit it. And I was very uncomfortable. And I kept saying but just tell me why I mean, why can’t we just keep doing it the way we’ve always done it, I feel guilty taking that much money from you. And he said, and I’ll never forget how he said it. And I could hear it in my mind. He said, If anything were to happen to me, I want to make sure that I fulfilled my promise to you, my youngest daughter who my only child who’s still in school, of finishing your master’s degree and have paid for it for you. So I want you to take that check and deposit it and I remember saying But dad, nothing’s gonna happen to you. You’re This is crazy, you’re healthy, you’re young. And it made me uncomfortable. And it made me upset to hear him talking like that. But I did take the cheque and I did deposit it I actually opened a separate checking account so that I wouldn’t think I was like, you know, Miss moneybags over here. And, um, you know, anyway, eight months later, he passed away. And he would not have been, he would not have fulfilled that promise of, you know, paying for my graduate school. And part of somewhere in him knew that his time was coming. I don’t think he consciously knew. I don’t think if you would have asked him. That’s what he was. That’s what he consciously was thinking but he had a knowing within himself. That his time was coming due. And it was, you know, he wasn’t sick he was he was perfectly healthy. And so when I reflected on that, it gave me a lot of comfort to think that his soul was preparing. And there were other things, there were so many things that indicated that his soul was preparing, and that it was all in perfect divine timing.
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Do you find or do you feel or what are your thoughts I should say in because you, you talk about miracles, and synchronicities and all these things and signs that we can see to to especially draw comfort from from from something to help us overcome something as well. What do you what do you think are the defining factors from being aware enough to see them to them slipping right by? Because when we’re in grief when we’re in pain when we’re in dark places, which I’ve certainly been as well, it’s very difficult to even poke your head up to think there’s another way, you know?
And yeah, no, 100% I think that the big part of it is just being open to it, I think, because serena and I talk about this a lot in our interviews, because we both have had friends and loved ones who’ve asked us, because we’ve written this book, now people like to talk to us when they lose somebody, you know. And I had a friend who just recently read our book, and she got married just a few weeks ago, and she read the book just before that. And she texted me, I wasn’t able to go to her wedding, it was in California, and I have a newborn, and it just wasn’t gonna work out. But she, she texted me after the wedding. And she said, I have to tell you, you know, her father passed away when she was 16. So 15 16 years ago, and she said, I have never thought to ask my dad for a sign or to look for signs from him. I just felt like he was gone when he died. But she said that she read our book. And she thought about that and thought, like, Well, I mean, I can, I’ve learned I can give them signs and be open to this sort of idea that he’s still with us. I can, too. And she, she said that every single day, she has seen a monarch butterfly, since she read her book. And since she asked her dad for signs. And on her wedding day, she said to her dad, you know, in her mind and her prayers, she said, if you’re going to be with me, let me know with a butterfly at the wedding. And she sent me a video of a monarch butterfly trailing her on her walk down the aisle to get married as if it was walking her down the aisle. And but you know, if three, three months ago, she wouldn’t have ever experienced that, because she just wasn’t looking forward and she wasn’t open to it. So I think that that’s a big part of it. You just have to. It was true for me, too. I mean, like I said, those early weeks, I was not open to receiving signs, I was very much in a low place in my grief. And I wasn’t, you know, I wanted to receive signs. And because I grew up with the parents I did, I was aware of that. But I wasn’t actually open to it. I hadn’t opened my heart up to that idea, but it didn’t take me long and and then I started to receive so many signs and synchronistic moments and recognitions that you know, everything was on time.
Yeah, beautiful. And I’m curious, as I’m listening to you talk more I want to lean into the book, and you’ve called it the knowing and 11 lessons to understand the quiet urges the soul. What, why did you settle on that title? Especially the knowing?
Yeah, so we didn’t have a title in mind when we wrote the book. And we, when we compare, you know, eventually joined our writing and created this book, we still didn’t originally have a title. But as we combined our stories and looked at common themes, we found that this idea of having an intuition or knowing a higher self, was really weaved throughout so much of what we had already written about. And, you know, the knowing we like to define it as, it’s like your inner lighthouse, it’s always there, you know, all you have to do is look for it. It’s guiding you. And there’s so much in our lives that can get in the way of tuning into and connecting with this inner, higher self. So part of the book is part the small parts of the book are just how to connect to your knowing and how to how to, you know drown out the extra noise and And surrender to the situation that is your life instead of fighting it and resisting and yeah, just be settled on the title because it was it felt like it was already the title, you know?
Yeah, totally, totally. And you have 11 lessons. And I’m curious to see. Because when I, when I’ve written them down, the one thing that jumped out to me straightaway was the first one. What is this teaching me? And I’d love you to speak to that a little bit, because especially with the way the world has gone, and at the moment, you know, it’s been Yeah, it’s been a challenge in 18 months, and of course, we can quickly become victims of circumstances.
Yeah, exactly. I, when I like to think of the line, you know, you can either be a host to miracles, or a hostage to your circumstances. And by miracles, it can be just growth. I mean, it doesn’t have to be some miraculous event, it can just be growing as a person. And I think the way to transition from being a hostage, to your circumstances to a host to miracles, is to shift your perception. And it sounds simple. But you know, A Course in Miracles says, a miracle is a shift in your perspective. That’s all it is, is your circumstances don’t necessarily change. But the way that you’re viewing them changes. And if that makes you a different person, you know, you’ve grown then, when you can. Our dad wrote a book called change your thoughts change your life, I mean, choose different thoughts, choose a different perspective. And it’s not always that simple. It takes work is what I’m saying. But I do think it is that simple. But I also completely agree that it takes work. And sometimes when you’re caught up in your circumstances, it’s like, well, easier said than done, you know. And we’ve all found ourselves in situations that are outside of our control. And what can you do then? Well, the only thing you have control of is your attitude is the thoughts you’re thinking about your if your situation is completely outside of control, outside of your control, shift what’s within your control, which is how you’re responding to it. And because you know, one thing My dad always said to me growing up, life’s not happening to you, it’s responding to you. And so when you shift who how you’re responding to life, it will, your life will shift. You know, I remember when I found out that I was pregnant for the first time, my husband and I, you know, we knew what we were doing. We’re adults, we knew what what could have happened. But I was still shocked. I was very shocked. And I was shocked in not a good way. I hadn’t really thought about and I think a lot a lot of women I’ve spoken to can relate to this. You start thinking like, oh, we’re married, let’s you know, let’s stop, let’s pull the goalie and see what happens. And then it happens. And you’re kinda like, what did I do? You know, what’s my life about to become and so in those early days, when I found out I was pregnant, I was honestly a little bit terrified, I just kept thinking about how my life was never going to be the same. And, and I kept thinking about how, you know, I had been living this great life, I was travelling, you know, because my husband and I own a restaurant. And so I could kind of make my own schedule. I wasn’t travelling with him, because that was hard to do when you own a business, but I was travelling with friends, and I was just really enjoying where I was at in life. And then as all I can think about was how that was coming to an end, and I was not going to be happy. And it was not until I read a part of Marianne Williamson’s book. I forget the title right now, but there’s a chapter in one of her books about surrendering. And, you know, removing that resilience, when you’re resisting life, you’re not going anywhere, you’re you’re stuck and I recognise, like, I’m having this baby. And I know I’m going to love him. So let’s just stop with all this nonsense about all the never again and how my life is gonna suck from this point forward, because it’s just, it’s probably not true. And I, I surrendered to where I was in my life, and it was at that point that I started to allow the joy, the joys of, you know, soon to be motherhood, to come into my life. Whereas before that I was going into sort of like a depression about what was to come. And I remember after my son was born, I heard the quote There is no way to happiness happiness is the way from the doubt a Ching it’s a quote, we’ve all probably heard a million times it’s in, you know, fortune cookies. And it’s, it’s not something I’ve heard a million times, but it resonated with me for the first time. And I recognise that, you know, there is no way to happiness, staying on without children, and travelling and all that, that was not the way to happiness. And being a mother also was not the way to happiness. But happiness is the way you know, I bring the happiness to where I am in my life, and therefore it’s a happy life, you know, I bring the happiness to being a mother, I could sit here and choose to see this, as you know, I’m my life, my, my world has gotten very small, it’s, you know, and I could see that as a bad thing, or I could just see it as this beautiful time in my life, that’s gonna be fleeting, and then I’m probably gonna miss one day, and just surrender to that and, and dive into it. And when I did that, I started to experience all the joys and exciting things that were going on in my life that I was prior to, that I was blocked off from, you know,
you know, I can still relate even being as a dad now about to become a dad, I went through the same kind of emotions, to be honest, you, you know, and, and I remember a pivotal point. Because myself and my wife are trying and we had a miscarriage. And it was the first time that that’s okay, it was the first time I realised, oh, my God, I actually I really wanted this where, before I was, so Oh, my God, well, you know, in that place, and it really moved me in a way so when my wife fell pregnant again, I would, I remember just walking around, embodying what it would be like to be carrying a baby or whether it be like to being a dad and I would speak to young dads, if I saw them in a cafe and, and just really started to erase those emotions or feelings that come off of it. And then when I finally became a dad, it was it was a beautiful experience where I knew that it was so easy to fall into that, that resistance and just freak out and focus on all the things that, you know, you could be losing, not gaining, right,
which is great. It’s just a shift in perspective, and it can make all the difference. Another thing that I this idea that I bought into when I found out I was pregnant, actually, I bought into this idea that I could never have a career, I thought, alright, my chances of having a career are done the way I you know, I have eight months left until I better make it in the next eight months, or that’ll just never happen I, I had this idea that I couldn’t be a mother and have any kind of career. Ironically, those that idea that I bought into is what pushed me and Serena, what pushed me to push both of us to get the book out here out there, I contacted, we had sort of let it fall by the wayside at that point. And I contacted the literary agent that we had been working with and the publishing company and I said, Okay, we’re ready to do this now. And I didn’t tell them why. But I just said want to do this now because in my mind, I thought I have a ticking time bomb until I can’t do this anymore. So I better get it done. You know, we put some it’s a I was proud of the work that we had put together, we just, you know, life got in the way at one point. But um, and then my son was born. And it turns out, none of that was true. But it was the push that I needed. And I now like to think of it because I think I thought like, you know, I have to find my purpose. And when I found out that I was pregnant, I thought like Well, that’s now going to be my purpose. And this other purpose that I thought I wanted of having a career and writing this book, and getting my, my messages out there, it’s not going to happen anymore, because I can only have one purpose. And since having my children now I have to I realised that you know, I like to think of purpose sort of like happiness, like what we were just talking about. It’s it’s not a destination, it’s not one thing that you’re going to discover it’s it’s, it’s a lifelong journey, your purpose is going to shift and it’s going to take on different meanings as you enter into different phases of your life. I mean, I think that so many of us have this pressure, like I have to find my purpose and I used to buy into that idea. And now I recognise that I’m living my purpose every day and it’s different right now than it was five years ago and it’s gonna be different five years from now. But I think you should try i’d now try to find purpose in everything that I do. You know, when it’s I’m sitting here doing an interview about our book. This is my purpose. And when I’m Being a mother to my children. That is my purpose. And when I’m writing, that is my purpose and that I have my purposes dynamic. And it’s not one thing that I have to find. And because it’s like, what, then when you retire? You don’t have purpose anymore? No, I think there’s purpose in every phase of our life. And it’s just up to us to view it that way.
I’m so happy to say that I only had this conversation yesterday with someone saying felt stuck and trapped, and all the time because they can’t find their purpose. And, and because it relates back to happiness is the way isn’t it? Exactly. I think of like, if you see a little child, that it’s not the stick gives them joy, like they can get fun out of anything, is that they bring in the fun into playing with the stick. Exactly. You know, right?
You bring your purpose, you bring the happiness, you know, it’s just, it’s just a shift. I know, because I used to buy into that idea like, well, if I don’t find my purpose by this age, and but how, how, what an awful way to view it, because then somebody who’s 45, or 55, or 65, is thinking like, I missed the boat, like, No, I think we’re always living our purpose, you bring your purpose to what you’re doing. And therefore it’s your purpose, therefore, it’s meaningful.
Massively, my old mentor used to say to me, because I was going through this phase and transition myself and like, you know, I don’t feel happy. And it’s like, well, if you’re striving for this over here with the elusive golden carrot, that’s your purpose over there, then what you’re seeing right now is that you’re actually not whole and complete, and you’re not going to be whole and complete when you get it. Right, that’s a very different place to be coming from, except you actually have everything you need right here, right now, in this moment, if you
so many of us attach our happiness to an outcome, you know, it’s 10 pounds away, when I if I just could lose 10 pounds, I’ll be happy, and I’ll go out, and then I’ll meet somebody, or, you know, and I used to do things like that, and I’m sure I still do but, or it’s $10,000 away, or it’s, you know, it’s, it’s when I get married, then I’ll be happy or, you know, but happiness, that’s it’s, it’s the journey, you’ve got to find it along the way. And then often you, it leads you to the things that you are wanting, but if you’re attaching your happiness to that destination, you know, it’s like, it’s a ironic twist of events. But it’s when you let go and surrender, that often. I think the universe gives you what you’re seeking, I can remember one time my dad was on stage, and they had put he had asked them to have some sort of moving water on the stage. So they made that happen for him, they made a little like stream on the stage. And he he put his hand in the water and said, you know, if you want to experience the water, what do you have to do, you know, if I want, if I want to have this water, I want to feel it, if I stick my hand in there, and I try and grab it, and with my fist and pick it up, it’s just gonna all fall out, and it and it but if I can relax my hand and become one with the water and flow with it, then I really get to experience it. And I think it’s a metaphor for life. You know, when you’re clinging to something, you’re clinging to an outcome, you’re basically saying to the universe, I don’t really have this because if I don’t hold on tight, it’s gonna be gone, you know, versus relaxing into your circumstances, whatever they are. I think you then allow yourself to experience either the growth or whatever it is, you’re there to experience because I believe that we all go through life, the things that happen to us are on purpose. And they’re for us to you know, we’re here to grow. So whenever you can catch yourself and say, instead of saying, Why is this happening to me, why me? You know, it’s getting into that victim mentality. Try to shift from that to what is this here to teach me? How can I grow from this, you know, and just being open to it. It’s It’s similar to the signs and the synchronicities, just being open to the idea that you can grow, learn, change and become happy in the midst of your troubles and trials and tribulations. I think creates the pathway to that just being open to it, even if you can’t see it, just deciding to be open to
it. Awesome. Yeah. Just a quick question for you. Before we change gears as well record me as well now that you’re your parent, you know, you got two children, and myself having a young daughter as well. 15 months old, 16 months. I think Ava is now How do you see or feel instil in these principles into your children? Like if you have to do a footnote of what your parent in hopes to turn out like, or if they became 21? And could look back and say, Oh, my parents, you know, did this, this and this from you? How would that look because obviously, I embody this work, I do my best I fall from grace every day. But when I see my daughter, I think, Oh, my God, like, you know, is really gonna challenge me at the same time, right? Yeah,
yeah, it reminds me of it’s actually behind me on a canvas, and I’m in my son’s room right now. Doing this interview, and on a canvas, I have this poem, by Kahlil Gibran that says, Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself. They come through you, but not for you. And it goes on, and I don’t know the rest of it, but that those first few lines, I tried to remember that every day, they’re not mine. They are their own people, you know, and my grandma used to say, you guide and then you step aside, my parents really embodied that they didn’t put pressure on us to be any certain way. They they supported who we wanted to be, there was no pressure to have a certain political, you know, affiliation, to date, somebody who had a certain you know, who looked a certain way, or who was a certain religion, or there was no pressure to go to college, or, you know, they really just supported who we wanted to be. And they, I mean, what I think when you have eight children, you recognise they’re also different. They don’t come here for you, you know, they come here to be loved by you. But they don’t come here to be something for you. And I think when you can give that gift to your children of I love you, regardless of who you turn out to be or what you decide to do with your life, what, you know, what small decisions you decide to make every day, I love you, no matter what. That that’s, that’s what I hope to do. That’s what I hope my kids can look back and say, My mom always loved me, always supported me. You know, of course, you set a good example. And you can and, you know, I have a two and a half year old so it can be challenging. And it’s different when they’re toddlers than when they are teenagers. You know, I think you you set an exam guide in a different way, but it’s still always just letting them know that they’re loved. I just read that. And I was reading a blog about like, how do I discipline a two year old, but doing it from love, I don’t want to be yelling at him. But you know, they’re always doing bad things. Not always, but half the time at least. And it said that the most important the thing that the toddler is thinking when they misbehave and they, you know, they throw their food off their tray or something like that. They’re wondering if you still love them after they do something wrong. And it you know, made me made me a little bit teary thinking like, well, I don’t ever want them to wonder that, you know, I want them to know that he’s always loved. I don’t care if he throws every piece of food off of his tray that I give him for the rest of his life, you know. But anyway, that’s a silly example. But it’s just I think, letting them know that I love them for them. That’s what I hope they can look back and feel that I did. Yeah,
no, I get it. I get it. Only a couple of days ago, I was playing with Eva on the floor. And she just came up and bit my nose really hard. It made me squeal. And I’m like, What do I do? Right? Like, you know, it’s because there’s so many emotions in that moment. And so breeds guy, you know, but yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Just a couple of questions to wrap it up before we finished. One question is for the book. What are your what intentions? Do you have it? What are what are your hopes for it now that it’s been released?
You know, I’m not attached to sales or anything like that, I just hope that it gets into the hands of people who can benefit from it, you know, and who will read it and get something from it, and pass it along? That’s really what I hope I mean, our dad used to always say with his work that you know, when he cuz people would contact him like, oh, somebody put this on YouTube and you’re not getting your royalties and he would say I don’t care. My goal is to get the message out there. You know, if people are legally distributed, that doesn’t matter to me just distributed. Just the fact that they’re listening to it makes me happy. And I I feel the same way. I just want people to get the message. I don’t not in it for the money.
Yeah, beautiful. Love it. Um, do you have it? Any, any practices, anything that you do daily to kind of keep you with your foot on the path? Or do you find that you’ve been embodied in it for so long that you just kind of live it?
Oh, no, I definitely need the daily reminders. I mean, so I, I wish I could say that I was more committed to my meditation practice, but I’m not always but when I am, when I’m doing it daily, I feel far more connected. I feel like I’m able to quiet the noise and to tune into you know, my knowing too, I can I feel more connected to my dad too. I feel more patient, things like that. So when I am disciplined in it, that is and another thing that I love to do, because I know with two small kids and we live in New York, I do a lot of walking with the stroller and you know, I walk my, we go to the parks and whatever, but we just walk a lot. And so I listen to podcasts that are spiritually based. A lot of times I’ll listen to my dad, YouTube videos and stuff like that, or books on tape. And it just was just even 10 or 15 minutes of listening to uplifting content can just even if I’m not taking as much of it in as I’d like to because I’m correcting this one and you know, paying attention. It still it just shifts my whole energy to a more positive place. So those are the two things that I try and do right now.
Yeah, beautiful. Uh, you know, it’s funny you say that, because I get to have these conversations pretty much once or twice a week. And it’s changed my life like having doing that and experiencing that thing. So putting yourself around uplifting content and people is pivotal, isn’t it?
A totally. It’s, it makes a big difference. listening to my dad, I think like, I know, he was my dad, but he was a really talented speaker. And I think even more so than he was a writer. And when I listened to him speak, I just feel better. I just all of a sudden that’s like my whole perspective can shift just from hearing one story, one piece of advice, you know, one talking point, and I’m on to a different path for the day.
Yeah, I’ll say I’d say this on there. Like your dad’s book, change your thoughts change your life. I think I can’t remember when I was listening to that I read on audible, I was going through a really rough bite. And I would listen to that on repeat many, many years ago. And it was it was huge. You know, it’s really there really is powerful. You know, so yeah, I’m eternally grateful for that as well. Yeah. Last question. Is it with everything we’ve covered today on the show? Is there anything you’d like to leave the listeners to ponder?
Um, you know, I think the theme of today’s show was just leaning into your life and stop resisting I mean, yo, when I was one time in the car with my dad and the song I hope you dance by Lee Ann Womack came on the radio Do you know that song? I don’t know. It’s Yeah, it wasn’t because this is us. You know you’re in Australia we’re in the US but it’s it’s a very famous song here. And it’s a it’s the whole theme of the song is a lot of cliche lines, you know, I hope you never fear those mountains in the distance, I hope you if you get the chance to sit it out or dance I hope you dad say, on and on things like that really positive messages throughout the song. And Mike came on the radios with my dad. And he said, I want you to listen to this whole song. And I agree with every single line in this song except for one. And I want you to see if you can figure out which which line it is. So we listened to the song and I don’t remember if I got it right or not. But he said afterwards, she in there, she says I hope you never settle for the path of least resistance. And he said, I hate that line. I disagree with that line. Because I think you should always take the path of least resistance. You know, it’s like what we’ve been talking about. It’s clinging versus allowing. Wanting to when the universe is offering you resistance, look at that, look at yourself, you know, go with the flow. Serena loves to end our interviews with the example of our dad used to say the song Row, Row Row Your Boat, you know that one? It’s like a nursery rhyme for kids. It my dad used to say that’s a metaphor for life, you know, row, row, row your boat, you know, you do the row and it’s your life. Gently down the stream, go with the flow. So it’s sort of a metaphor for how I’d like to live my life. Don’t Don’t fight up the stream. It doesn’t mean you don’t work hard or things Like that just going with the flow of of your life, I think makes it a happier, more fulfilling life. It provides you with opportunities to grow and to help others to be of service, things like that. I think if you’re if you find yourself in a situation where you don’t feel like you can find the joy, try and find it for somebody else or give it to somebody else you know and, and see if that shifts that for you, because I think being of service to others is often more of a service to ourselves. And
100%. Sage, thank you, thank you for sharing everything. Thank you for coming on the show. You’ll it’ll reach a lot of people here in Australia, and they have no doubt it will inspire them and support them in some way. So your time is greatly appreciated. And if they want to grab a copy of the book, where can they where can they get it? I’m assuming this on all the bookstores, Amazon.
It’s on Amazon. Yeah, it’s in all the bookstores. Yeah, I don’t I know it’s in Australia. I don’t know a lot about the that’s okay. Where it is in Australia, but it’s definitely online. And it’s on Audible and Amazon and all amazing. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Thank you for having me. It’s been lovely. You’re very
welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you.