The Trap of Seeking: Enlightenment, Surrender and the True Nature of Self | San Qing

San: 
If you’re thinking, you’re not knowing. If you’re knowing, you’re feeling. Your fueling your anger exceeds your love for yourself. Your fueling your fear exceeds the love for yourself. Your fueling your anxiety exceeds the love for yourself. Enlightenment at this point is a dirty word. It’s the scarlet letter for most people because they pursue it like they’re gonna find the answer. You’ve gotta run into the fire.

Guy:
Hey everyone, Guy here. Just a quick announcement from me before we jump into this amazing podcast today with Taoist master San Qing. I am coming to the USA. We’re gonna be doing a three-day event. You get to spend three days with myself, Matt Omo, and San Qing. It’s gonna be phenomenal. We’re gonna be running it just outside in the desert, just outside of Las Vegas. 

So if that tickles your fancy and you wanna come and join us and really dive deep, links will be below. We also, in this podcast, roughly about the last 10, 15 minutes of the podcast, speak to that event as well. There’s a lot in this episode. Enjoy, and if you wanna find out more about the USA, you can skip towards the end. Much love from me. See you soon.

Guy:
San Qing, welcome to the podcast, my man. I think it’s like the fourth time now.

San:
Yeah, yeah. We’re, we’re, we are kicking ass and taking names when it comes to conversation and the greater sense of self. And any time I come to spend time and commune with you, brother, it’s like with open arms. I have so much love for you, so this is great to spend a little time.

Guy:
Oh, thank you, man. Li- likewise. You know, it, um, I listen to your podcast a lot. I listen to your podcast with you and Jade. We obviously have conversations a lot. We catch up outside and, and I really, I get a kick out of bringing you onto the podcast and sharing a conversation with our listeners and audience, ’cause there’s always wisdom, there’s always so much profound truths, and, and I find myself always contemplating and like, “What was he saying? What was he on about?” And then just sit with it for a day or two.

San:
Yeah.

Guy:
lands

San:
yeah. I mean, I remember that, uh, poem I sent you, the last one, Crash. Did you read that? Yeah.

Guy:
I did. I did, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I had to s-

San:
nuts. That’s like Lotso just riffing right there, just bang. this to him right now.” I’m like, “Okay, done.”

Guy:
W- well, to, to kick off the conversation where we, we were speaking off air a little bit, we were talking about the, the, the difference within surrender or being submissive, even getting to the, this chase for, you know, experience, enlightenment. The- these, these are vast topics and conversations, but, uh, I feel like it’d be great to dive into these and address them a little bit, especially in this day and age now and, and the amount of podcasts out there and, and in the spiritual lane and the, the amount of different versions of this.

It’s like we take the human condition and impose it upon the truth and what i- what is truth? You know, there’s our version of the truth, and then there’s absolute truth, and there’s something, you know, the gap in between. That’s, that’s what I kind of feel on my journey. But so let’s start there. What do you see…

You’ve worked with many, many people, and what do you feel is where people come up against themselves, wh- where, where the challenges lie, and why people even lean into this work looking for answers?

San:
That’s the, that’s like an epic into the nature of reality. I love it. Because, you know, we, we talk about submission, uh, versus surrender, and there’s this even softer spot in between where someone would refer to it as a sacrifice. And so you’re kind of leaning into what are the, what are the possibilities and probabilities now in your own life, whether it’s making a choice of, uh, a new relationship or, uh, who are, who are you in relation to identity of your workplace, your job, your independence, the true nature of self when you wake up in the morning.

Like, I mean, that charge you and I are getting right now, you just feel that potency because we really have to take a moment where we’re being kicked into the dirt to, to have a, a version of, of wake up. like, well, how do you find yourself in, you know, this spiritual sort of awakening or path? It doesn’t come, generally speaking, with this effortless little, uh, uh, experience where I had a meditation one day and I woke up and I’m, you know, God, God energy. 

I am the I am. It always generally is effective you get punched in the face, when you feel the suffering of the human condition. Things start to become opposite, and you start to go, “Well, I wanna look for something greater,” because I’m… At a, at a macro level, things seem to be individualized, and you’re balancing what would seem, for most people, a dualistic experience, where the, within Taoism, we refer to that as this symbiotic dance between yin and yang. And, you know, some people may refer to it as good and bad, up and down, in and out. You’re having a perspective that you can sort of create a message, which is two options. in the hypnotic stance, we refer to this as a double bind, option A or option B. It’s either good or bad, and I don’t really have a gray area because I’ve never experienced the mediocre.

It’s always been one extreme. So when you’re looking to find yourself- The most common place is submission. And most people that are in a place of… that they think they’re in a place of surrender normally refers back to what we call in Taoism virtue signaling. When you’re, when you think you’re acting in virtue, you have none. It’s a polar opposite within this space. So as a macro, this seems very clear. But when you micronize things and you go right down to the fine laser point of the grain of sand, streams are really coming from one.

You could refer to this as a, a scientism sort of physics aspect, where we’re talking about fractals, and we’re talking about holograms, and you can recognize that everything is really not separated but connected. Um, uh, you know, Einstein might refer to it as, you know, some type of, like, entanglement. You’re getting a, an idea that things are much closer together than it seems they are. When you step back, it’s like, “Oh my goodness, way closer than I ever thought.”

So submission to surrender is really recognizing that the sacrifice that you’re making on the road to truly surrendering is the death of self Can you, uh, look in the mirror, get up in the morning and look at, in the mirror and ask yourself, “Is this a, is this a good day to die,” or, “Am I ready to die?” And that’s not metaphorically. That is an iteration of self. Are you truly ready to deconstruct what has been driving or having you being by thoughts, feelings, and emotions? And really, the apprehension and why people are r- submissive is because they don’t want rejection. They don’t wanna feel vulnerable.

They don’t wanna assume stupidity or ignorance or that they have different perspectives someone else, and that if they actually accept and own this level of forgiveness where they’re going, “You know what? I screwed up. I thought it was this way, and I made a mistake.” ‘Cause we can’t make mistake.

We’re all, we’re all I am the I am, which is the fundamental destruction of spiritual path in this day and age, is that everyone wants to be of the light. No one ex- assumes there is any darkness. And within Taoism, there’s only two things that come out of it, you know. Darkness is the omission or, or, or the suppression of light, and light is the admission of light. So you absorb the light in the yin, you expand the light in the yang. That’s it. But of course, we have different iterations. So the pain and suffering from submission is really where most people don’t wanna go, ’cause that requires re-evaluating things, and that iteration where the Russian doll effect that we talk about is that you’re breaking the mold, and you’re changing and returning back to whole.

And so that’s where they think they’re at. of surrendering, surrendering is, oh my goodness, it’s like light-years away from, from this process where you literally walk up to the edge, you fear something, and you dive into it, which means all inhibitions are dissolved. That means that anything that you feel as though is a distraction is going to go into the wood chipper right at that very moment, which is kinda scary. But anything that brings your attention, you want to run towards, not run away from.

Guy:
So, so the submission is a, is a bypass to, to f- to what’s presenting itself. ‘Cause I, I kind of … the, the way I kind of wrap my, my brain around this and try and apply it in my daily life is that it’s like if I am, if I am consciousness, if I am this divine being having this physical experience, and I’m an extension of source or the pulse of the universe that is coming into form, and if this is an ever-expanding, ever-evolving, ever-growing, or like Tom Campbell would say, the lowering of entropy, creating, creating more love, creating more kindness and, and being in this space, then that is forever flowing through me.

And then all the aspects of myself that I’ve created from the mind, uh, are the, the, the holding points, and it’s almost like every time I look in the mirror, I’m seeing the old version of myself from yesterday. And as there’s this acceleration, I can only put it in through my own journey and growth of this work, it, it just keeps butting up against those, those areas m- more and more and more, which is requiring me to surrender into it in those moments more and more. Not bypass or create a story and avoid through … whether I do need to speak or own my voice or through confrontation or, you know, the things that require power, that can be done with love at the same time, right? It doesn’t

San:
brother.

Guy:
Yeah.

San:
Yeah, I mean, you’re, you’re, the avoider. Uh, go ahead. Go ahead

Guy:
No, no, but it’s a journey. It’s, it’s a reiteration of a journey, and it’s like, it, it’s almost like it accelerates and it’s buttoned up more more and more, but at the same time, th- that, that energy you speak of and that yin and that yang and that fractal, you know, from, from the, the, the, the, the smallest atom to the physical energy, I just see toruses of energy in my mind to the black holes of the cosmos and to, you know, we- it’s all fra- it’s all the same.

And that is pulling energy. Like, I see fountains coming out of the pulse, like a whale spouting water. You know, it’s like it’s coming out, and it’s like, if that’s not in harmony… That’s how I think now. It’s just bizarre. I don’t, like, I think maybe I’ve done one too many podcasts, mate.

San:
I love it. Well, you know, this is the, we call the trinity, the trilogy within Taoism. So it’s creation, completion, and rebirth. The- there are three factors that take place. The stress, the adaptation to it, and then the expansion. So you’re always going to be able to zoom in on the myopic grain of sand or the atom or s- or zoom out to the universe, and you’re going to experience these, these phases of expansion no matter what you’re doing, where you’re at. And, you know, the biggest question is always, well, when does it, when, when do you arrive? Well, that’s a very interesting question. is your definition of arriving? Because the self, absolute self, the truth is holy. So you’re abundant, timeless, endless, limitless, infinite. The true nature everything through this spoken word as you surrender to what you think know to be only iterations.

Thoughts, feelings, and emotions are transitory. They’re impermanent. You are permanent. You are immortal. You’re eternal. You are forever, forever. And part of that journey recognizing from the complexity of the human condition the labyrinth of the finite mind, you come out the other end with human beingness. You recognize that you have always been whole. And the excitement of revealing that to yourself is the joy and the, the compassion that constantly arises from c- reconnecting. That, that, um, empathy is the true nature Of human beings.

That’s something that’s a superpower. Yet most people are running away from that because that would require complete surrender, it’s determinative as a sacrifice or a submission because they’re still in that lag point. They’re in that docking station where persona, my personality, my feelings are way more important than the truth. Because I will avoid it till the e- umpteenth time to meet myself. Because if I do, is a, there is a, an entry level, as you put it, as Thomas put it before, an input, an entropy level that makes it so painful that you’re just bracing for impact. what happens is when you finally, through exhaustion, surrender it, it’s, it’s an expansive moment that was overrated, and then you start to recognize that there is nothing that is not complete. all whole. Does that make.

Guy:
Hmm. It does, and I was thinking of the, the, the phrasing that you said about, um, adaptation and expansion. So it was this… What was the first one you used?

San:
Stress.

Guy:
Stress. So the stress itself. Yeah, yeah.

San:
you

Guy:
Could-

San:
up against that edge and then you break the Russian doll

Guy:
And then the adaptation occurs, and then the expansion occurs, and then the, the, therein lies the, the growth and the, the lowering of entropy as well, you could even say, the,

San:
Oh

Guy:
of that energy flow. Yeah. Yeah. It takes me back to the gym days. It’s almost like you’ve gotta create a stress stimulus to get the adaptation, and there’s an expansion from it. But, you know, and, and get the timing right and the stimulus for the body to, to move forward, not to break it down.

‘Cause you would see the opposite in that people would be so committed, so dedicated, they’re actually just running away from a trauma and using the gym as an escape route, and breaking their bodies over time by going too hard, you know? W- where, where, where the, the balance of the yin and the yang is out of flow, as you probably would have said, right?

San:
Well, yeah. I mean, what most people do is they over-train. You and I know this. It’s like they get excited by the idea of potential of growth. to really obtain that means you need to step back. Any time I’ve ever achieved a goal when it comes to power lifting and bodybuilding over my lifetime, less is more, not more is more. And, and m- people cannot get away from the incessant obsession with continually riding it and more, and more. So I get a little result, and then if I put 10 times the amount of effort in, I should get 10 times the result. But when the body comes down to it, body cycles a certain rhythm. There’s a rhythm to creating, uh, homeostasis, and then furthermore, expansive state that is sustainable.

You hold that resonance. So when we’re cultivating energy, that alchemy, you’re compressing what is, uh, the ethereal substance into the material biology. And by saturating the biology is where you reveal, we refer to it as immortality crystallized in the material. Longevity is evident. You’re sustaining an energy flow that cannot be cannibalized by any external force. Where most healers will recognize that they can transfer energy and, and interrupt pattern within someone’s system that is erratic, and then give them a healing paper visually. in s- in essence, they’re selling their soul.

They’re feeding by extracting it from their baseline. Within the alchemy process, you feed it, you contain it, you encapsulate it, and you never return to the body. So you, you, you go from, you know, 100% to 9,000%, and you maintain that for the rest of existence, for your rest of your lifespan within this material world so that ever do you tap into your own source. Does that make

Guy:
And that massive, mate, because, you know, after doing this for eight years myself, I’ve, I’ve I’ve noticed the reiteration of myself change, where unconsciously I was the battery pack and not using divine source as the battery pack and, and just l- letting it come through. But even in through, you know, some of the conversations, some of the exercises I’ve been doing with you as well and, and bringing in, I’ve noticed the, the difference in that saturation of energy within, within every cell, where before I would go there and it’s like, huh, I, I wasn’t, I wasn’t f- feeling the mojo.

Do you know what I mean? I can go into energy, energy, an- any energy center and literally it, it’s humming, humming or like go into my liver or my o- my, my kidneys or … I just feel it, and I can feel it oscillating, and it’s like, wow, that was, that was not there before. But to, to meet that version of myself that’s holding that resonance, I had to come up against myself many, many times of what was being stored there.

It, you know, back to what we said into the, the, the, um, the torus of energy of, of what’s not flowing and what’s being held, um, then that has to be, that has to come out some ways, like rinsing a flannel. That’s how I look at it anyway, and I’m like, “Holy shit, it’s uncomfortable. It’s not pleasant.”

San:
Right. Right,

Guy:
And the, uh,

San:
Go ahead.

Guy:
body knows what to do, uh, but that They are the … They, for me, they are the, the, the, the deepest educational moments for myself, taking it back to whether it’s submissive or surrender, and am I distracting myself or am I truly being with what is happening in this moment? Which is hard, you know. Like, uh, I’ve got a life, I’ve got kids, I run events, and like there’s lots going on at the same time. It’s like, holy moly.

San:
presents itself is the more you condense that energy within the

Guy:
Mm.

San:
the fragility can only remain on the surface. It gets pushed out. You’re too big. no more room. There’s no more room for thoughts, feelings, the emotions to linger and to permeate. just no space there. So they will sit on the surface, and then upon your own inaction, will be pondered occo- uh, uh, accordingly as, as being anti-you because you need to burn it out. There’s just no value there. The more someone gets into the introspective, uh, analysis paralysis, gonna spend a lifetime there, as opposed to recognizing, oh, this is what it is. Burn.

And so, a, a typical exercise I like to share with people is when you can differentiate very quickly where you’re at, because second a thought, feeling, and emotion arises, your ability to contain that and to repeat it like, like a rat in a wheel will determine how far you’ve come in the conditioning process. Because in your mind, you won’t be able to hold the distortion. It just doesn’t happen. It will not remain. The default that you’re conditioning, the resonance you’re holding will burn it the F out of the system, 1,000%. So, you know, most commonly, you could use this example for, you know, the average male that spends most of his time thinking about, you know, women in all different types of ways, ’cause that’s just the cycle, the primal nature, is that they’re in need of replicating.

And so most… The average guy is always looking out for, “Oh, my goodness, this is a more beautiful version of this woman, this state, this whatever.” And so I, I ponder the question or ask the, the individual listening to this podcast, see where you’re at. Can you conjure up in your mind some image, some sensual image of a woman not your wife, your partner, your family member, and how long that distortion can last? And it got to a point for me very early in the game I literally couldn’t hold the image. It would evaporate and, and burn to ash. I couldn’t hold it in my mind, it was just a natural order. That’s what the resonance was at. It’s not that it’s good or bad. It just holds no merit or value within the system. It has nothing to anchor to. Zero value. It just disappears. that make sense?

Guy:
It– I think so. And, and from what I’m getting from this then is, like, how much of those distortions are we holding on of people around us that is, that is then recreating the emotions, the thoughts, the feelings in ourself that’s keeping us stuck because we have got a projection upon or a story behind all of that, that we’re not even aware of, that’s all running under the surface.

That, that– but it’s creating the lens through the distortion pattern, which is ultimately just energy. But we’ve created a story, a meaning, and all sorts of bullshit that we get caught up in. Like, the amount of stories I hear is, is a m- is, is wild. They just go into story.

San:
It’s another

Guy:
And I,

San:
that

Guy:
uh, but I get it. Like, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been a great fucking storyteller half my life, mate. Like, I’m n- I’m n- uh, like I’m happy to… You know, and I still fall into the story.

San:
Yeah, yeah.

Guy:
But, but at the same time, yeah, recogni- it doesn’t serve you. It, it just, it ju- doesn’t, yeah

San:
no, no. It’s like a, it’s like a, it’s like a bump. It’s a reverberation. It’s an oscillation Use it as such. It’s another, it’s another gateway for expansion. So that’s where you might have seen a little gap or a softness in your own field or your own expansion. The second it comes to the surface, the surface of ser- servitude of the surface of yourself, it burns out. It doesn’t hold any credence. It doesn’t hold any value, and that’s the key element there. You know, you don’t keep playing the game of, well, this thought, feeling, and emotion is coming to this place, person, or thing. It’s them.

They are the reason why I feel this way. And that’s a trap that everyone gets caught up in because it’s like a slap across the face. Well, I have to deal with my real life. is just the fairy tale life of, you know, Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory and, you know, all the whimsical things that take place where, you know, everything is, uh, s- rainbows and, and moonlight and, you know, fairies dancing in the enchanted forest. People tend to miss the point. To meet yourself, everything goes back into the jambalaya. Everything goes back into soup. Everything becomes whole. You are me, I am you. That’s just a Hallmark throwaway until you experience  holiness that doesn’t require identity or purpose, and doesn’t even, even not even suggest or call on you to participate.

You are not any value. That’s the part that people find really difficult, is that, hang on, I have an identity. I have a persona. I have a sense of self. if I’m not participating, then who is? And that’s the part that people find difficult. That is like, well, what, what, what does that, what does that even mean? Well, you’re already complete. You’re whole. You’re not recreating the wheel. There’s no reason for you to even inject conversation. Allow your resonance to precede you, and watch resort back to state, its natural selection, which is whole. So nothing, no stone will be unturned. Everything will return to the place it needs to be.

Guy:
Hmm

San:
And then all of a sudden, miracles are just the normal blip on a screen, which most people consider just this epic moment that they can’t even fathom because they’ve been trained be discontent. They’ve been trained to be shallow. They’ve been trained to be afraid of authority, and that fear is the only tool that controls them from finding themselves. It’s a bigger master plan

Guy:
Yeah. I find that, um, what’s helped me is that with that stress adaptation and expansion is actually recognizing that cycle within myself as well to, to be able to hold space to and lean in, ’cause when I’m in, when there’s a new version of myself, I went through it last night and yesterday. Like, I could feel it coming through my body and my chest again, and, and these waves, they just keep coming in, ’cause we ran an event on the weekend, two, two-night event, and there was a lot of energy, there was a lot of potency, and what I’m finding as I come out of it, then there’s, there’s a, there’s a recalibration.

That’s almost like my stress point in there that’s creating the next adaptation and, and expansion coming out the other side. So having been through enough of those cycles, it’s helped me Put the mind at ease, and then I can lean into being more of the witness and just allowing it, you know? So, so, so I move through it instead of going into the story, which is, which is, for me, very powerful.

And, and my wish is I w- like, I, um, what I’ve s- just through observation with being with, with a lot of people, is that they’ve got no reference point of that, like, that cycle. They, they, they’ve avoided that aspect, that path, and they’ve come up with all sorts of amazing, beautiful stories and education and analysis and podcast binges and like, their mind is so full. But actually in, when you’re in it, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a different ballgame, and the only way to, to be in it, to… the only way to learn from it is to be in it, really. There’s no other way

San:
You’ve gotta run into the fire. You’ve gotta know

Guy:
another way of putting it. I was doing the gentle version. I’m standing here right now in Lake Taupo in a beautiful retreat space, and there’s a vast difference between an intellectual experience and passive listening to a fully embodied lived experience, ’cause that’s what retreats can do. They can help you land, start to truly reconnect to yourself, to others, to nature, and to spirit as well.

There’s so much in it. That’s why we created Live in Flow, and that’s why we are so passionate about getting this work out there and bringing people together. If you wanna find out more when our next retreat or event is coming up, just check out the link below. And now, back to the podcast.

San:
But you know, you and I come from, from a, a, a, a basic fundamental, you know, training aspect. So anyone that’s ever exercised and wanted to achieve something, they understand it fundamentally because you, you apply the body to the steel and then you make the steel conform to your will. You want to achieve something, either shape the body Hit a goal, exceed the goal in strength, endurance, you know, hypertrophy. All of these things are measurable by what you… how you apply yourself.

Guy:
Hmm.

San:
And just when you feel like you’ve hit a wall, you exceed that with a new PR, a new value, and that, that, that really makes the, the path of, of, um, exercise so potent ’cause literally what I’m referring to is an exorcism. And so when you apply yourself, whether you wanna go for a walk after a meal, or you’ve had a stressful day and you just wanna take your body and reintegrate it into the earth and ground yourself out, you go for a walk.

Or you wanna get a little bit more turbulent, and you’re being completely controlled by the struggle with your thoughts, feelings, and emotions and, you know, the ones that are more, uh, you know, temperamental like anger, frustration, fear, and you’ve had a day, a banger of a day, you go to the gym, and you start to exercise that energy out of the body. It is you giving yourself your own exorcism. And as you open those channels, the liver channel, the lung channel, the heart channel, the kidney channel, the spleen channel, all of a sudden, “Ah, I needed that. I just feel better. I have no idea why. I just… Maybe it’s the blood flowing. Maybe it’s just the fact that I got a time to myself. 

I got to just spend a little time and separate myself from what was just chaos, what was just erratic, like, madness that I couldn’t make sense of ’cause I got so deep into it. As you refer to it, the story was so potent I had to… I, I just had to fall into the story. I just couldn’t let go. It was so good.” And this is where I always remind people, your desire… Well, your desire for your fueling your anger exceeds your love for yourself. Your fueling your fear exceeds the love for yourself. Your fueling your anxiety exceeds the love for yourself. ass backwards. We know

Guy:
That’s powerful, man. Sorry, didn’t jump in. That, that was powerful right there, right? Yeah. On this path, we, we mentioned as well enlightenment, and this, this, th-this, but

San:
laughing with everyone, not against them, you know

Guy:
but this seeking, it’s like we can e- fall into then this trap of seeking, like there’s a nirvana at the end of the rainbow. I’d love to hear your, your thoughts on this and this journey to self. Because it’s so easy to fall into the trap of, “I’m gonna create this gap between…” And, and it could be the next goal, it could be the next financial reiteration of what my bank account needs to look like to feel safe, or it could be the next holiday or the ne- whatever it, whatever th-those, those achievements are.

I mean, I listen to stock trading podcasts, right? And the shit that they talk about and the materialism and the, the, the, the very… I don’t know, this linear approach to success and, and achievement. But it feels like then there’s always this dis- then right here, right now, then clearly I’m not whole or complete or worthy of, and I’m not recognizing my true self in any of that, and I’m just gonna keep chasing. And enlightenment seems to fall into that bracket as well.

San:
Oh, oh, absolutely. I mean, enlightenment at this point is a, is a, a dirty wo- word. I mean, it’s the scarlet letter for most people because they pursue it like they’re gonna find the answer. They pursue it as if God is listening to me. They pursue it as if Jesus is right there to basically unravel anything and everything is a problem in their life. And one of the biggest issues that pursuit is the forgiveness aspect, because that’s a cop-out. The forgiveness is where people play that game of submission, because it’s so easy to have someone else submit to your, your, your will, your purpose, your distortion, your manipulation.

When you ask or give forgiveness, people immediately submit to that because that’s what they require for themselves to believe they’re whole, and it’s generally a fundamental base for most religious practices. I suggest to the audience, how about if you know who the fuck you are, that you’re not going to ask for forgiveness because you’re never going to put yourself in the circumstance where someone is lesser than- The whole.

And so people use it as a manipulation to just keep distorting their life and dancing around the outside the fringe benefits of their personality and manipulation to never, ever meet themselves. And they can hide behind it. I forgive you. Do you forgive me? We can have a forgiveness party. opposed to recognizing there’s nothing to forgive you don’t satisfy that hunger that you have to let your anger be more important, let your anxiety be more important, let your fear be more important than the truth, absolute truth And it gets 

Guy:
yeah. No, it’s, it… Those, those signals, those anxieties, those angers, those frustrations, those, those moments that we can’t seem to control and they just percolate out of us, and then we go and seek forgiveness, but, uh,

San:
Yeah

Guy:
for our actions five days later.

San:
Right, right,

Guy:
But, but th- but then we’re, we’re perpetuating, we go back and the default hasn’t been… Th- that energy hasn’t been alchemized or liberated or whatever terminology. That’s what you’re saying at the end of the day, right? 

San:
yeah.

Guy:
Yeah.

San:
once you put, put the, your, your, your, uh… You put yourself to that test, if you’re thinking, you’re not knowing. If you’re knowing, you’re feeling. The sensory perception, the barometer, the tuning fork of the biology is where it’s at to navigate yourself back to home, to become whole. And so you’re, y- the more you compress and condense the energy into the body, there’s no room for distortion. And so when these things arrive, they arrive in a place where you’re not negotiating with your personality to go, “You know what? I wanna tell this person to screw themselves. I didn’t like the way they smiled at me today. Oh, they reached for the salt and pepper. I wanted it right now. They’re in my way.”

Everything that is happening, there is a justification, an excuse for why they’re here. of accepting and allowing everything as whole, as this stuff arises because of the internal alchemical process that you put yourself through, the stress, the adaptation, the expansion, it dissipates, it burns out. You never get to a point where you tell that person to F off. You never find the thought, feeling, and emotion of deficiency because you’re whole. So the soundtrack is louder than the action, especially when it comes to words, because the individual wants to be They wanna be hurtful.

They want to make a point. “I’m, I’m boycotting this circumstance, this situation, this place, this person, this thing. telling you I don’t like you.” Where do you get to stand there in the mirror and look back at yourself be truthful and say, “I don’t like you”? Now, you don’t wanna do it to yourself. have zero tolerance for yourself, the, the distortion of the way you look physically, the way you think mentally, the way you emote emotionally. This is this self-hatred, this intolerance. And so the needle, and they make it about everything external Does that make sense?

Guy:
Totally. Yeah. The arrows are always out. They’re never pointing inward. What, what, what’s, what’s going on within me here and now? And y- you said something I really caught my … If you’re thinking, you’re not knowing. And what was the other one you said?

San:
If you’re knowing you’re feeling

Guy:
Eh Boy, to me that’s a d- that, that’s a direct passage back into the body, right? Right there

San:
you know, I mean, for all the people that can see energy, I mean, Guy and I are as high as A- AF right now, and he’s containing a rhythm, a rhythmic balance of pulsating energy through his body right now. like it is real. It’s tangible. The more you commit to yourself, the more you condition yourself. You can, you can be present to return the distortion to whole. This is what is the luring effect of someone that you would follow as a wisdom teacher, as a guru. They have conditioned themselves to be the beacon of that absolute truth, that universal state, and then people f- are able to experience and repeat and remember themselves by merging in this emanation, this embodiment that that person has put themselves to the test, and the requirement is not there. It’s a rite of passage

Guy:
Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. But it’s fascinating listening to everything you share, ’cause it all makes sense. But I’ve got to the stage in my life, San, and I, I just… Like, when people go in there, I can’t– I’m not the guy to unpack it for you and talk to, to, about it and, and do all the rest. I don’t have the skill sets.

I don’t have the tools. I’m not a therapist. It’s like you can talk at me with your problems all day. I c- only you can do that, onl- and, and only you can change that. But if, if, if we, when you’re ready, if you wanna move some energy, and we wanna actually get to the core of it, that might be perpetuating that, I, I can do that.

I can do that. But I can’t, I can’t do the other stuff. And the, the more, the more I’m moving it within myself, the more it’s like, wow, it’s just like we’re all just playing out these fucking roles that are not … We’re all in the theater, and we’re, he’s playing that guy. She’s playing that person. Like they’re all… And, and you’re like, it’s, it’s not who we are. That’s not the truth of it. And it, do we, do we wanna get to the truth of it, or do we just wanna carry on in the pantomime for a while, a bit longer?

San:
mind Marcel Marceau all the way out. You know, I mean, it, it is. You bring up such a great point. This is where we talk about perception, uh, versus, uh, imagination. And imagination is another form of contorting or distorting things. You don’t have to imagine anything. Meaning this moment right now doesn’t require you to have to conjure up version of it. You’re experiencing it right here, right now. You do not have to contemplate and sit in a space where I want it to be rainbows and unicorns, and I wanna feel the divine light of God running through my body. Perceiving something is where you get the truth. It’s like you can imagine what it feels like to get slapped across the face, but you perceive that slap across the face when you actually experience it. I

Guy:
Yeah

San:
it doesn’t get any more real than that. It’s like, okay, we’re getting down to the nuts and bolts, because people tend to use visualization and imagination in the same sort of sense of the word, and to some degree it can be very successful. But in most cases, you’re attempting to recreate the wheel. You’re already whole. There is zero there. So you step back, as I always say, your participation is not required, and allow the true, the truth serum, the real absolute truth, through the resonance of the body as the tuning fork and the barometer, everything dissolves. Everything returns back to whole.

Guy:
Hmm. That version of self, so taking it into enlightenment, do you believe that there’s, there’s just an element of … Like, if we’re infinite,

San:
Mm-hmm.

Guy:
then to a degree th- th- then this, this journey is, isn’t it infinite? Like, the, the, the, the meeting the new version of ourself, we’re never really gonna get there. We’re just getting a more updated version that we understand from a knowing and a feeling level beyond the, the th- the, the thinking mind. Does that make sense? Am I… Are we going in the right direction? Yeah

San:
it comes back to a fundamental aspect of what we refer to as the great bellows. Everything is contracting and expanding at the same time. Accepting and allowing everything as the same will change your life forever. You’re not waiting for the train to get to its destination. You just sit back and explore as the train continues its journey. You’re not waiting for it to stop.

You’ve already… You’re already anticipating an end on something that will never happen. Yet, as you continually meet yourself, the more and more you expand, that will be evident in the ability to hold that node within the biology. You need to be able to hold that, like hold on, brace. Bracing for that expansion requires a conditioning process. This is where most people, and that’s why I refer back to what we were very familiar with, is exercise. 

Guy:
Hmm

San:
can see that conditioning process. The difference with exercise and what we’re doing is exercise is impermanent, the exercise is transitory. The exercise, if not continually maintained, will disintegrate. It will break down. It will disappear. Whereas the true self is permanent. It’s absolute. no matter what, and I mean, you can, you can speak from your own experience, when you’re doing the alchemic, when you’re focusing on alchemy and then, and all the e- in- the, uh, energetic architecture that you cultivate on a daily basis, you, you know and I know I could go away and go for a vacation in the Bahamas, come back, and the energy’s 10 times as strong, and I didn’t do a single thing

Guy:
Yeah Yeah, it just keeps going. The only thing that’s stopping it from, from … is when I get in the way. That’s it. Like, yeah, and, and it’s, it’s there. The moment, moment I put my awareness to it, it’s like, boom. The awareness, you know, where you place your attention and intention, right? It’s, it’s… Yeah, it’s incredible. It’s incredible. I, um, I’m aware of the time, mate. Why don’t we talk about … You got a, you got an amazing venue in-

San:
yes. We, we… Well, let’s talk about that. We’ve got this,

Guy:
Yeah

San:
spot where we, we have people come out, we do retreats, and we do intensives where people transform themselves over several days in an environment that is, is kind of magical and mystical. And, uh, it’s a, it’s a Tuscany setting. Used to be an old, uh, vineyard that we’d revamped into basically a retreat center. And, you know, people get to come out into the desert and, and really find themselves because that’s, that’s definitely … It, it, uh, holds a lot of answers, just the, the experience of the desert itself. And then furthermore, you can go exploring uh, we like to go out past that into the natural-formed pyramids where you just get high as AF all the transmissions that are coming

Guy:
Is that right?

San:
So focus. And so through that intensive, you know, we have the environment, for example, for incredible people like yourself and Matt to come out and start sharing of that wisdom teaching. And so we’re, we’re looking to the future, the next month or two, where people can come and gather and sip from the, the cup of immortality that, uh, Gaia and Matt are putting out, power of that through this experience. So all the environment is set where people can come to a sacred space and completely blow the roof off what their version of self is, and, and basically the new version at a, at a speed that would be light years. uh, you and Matt are incredible, um, wisdom teachers, and when you take that wisdom, it transforms itself into the body because that’s how we make sense of it as human beings.

We need to experience all of this. you know, then you get together with an- another Aussie from Down Under, and we, we form this incredible trio of, of enlightenment through methods that can be taken away from a, a three-day retreat that become a permanent part of your repertoire and your tool- toolbox for helping yourself meet this very moment. it’s about arriving, and then when you recognize your desire for arriving was just an illusion, that it’s a constant. You don’t have to go anywhere. It’s like we refer to this within Taoism, let the man who’s never left the village, him know that he has seen the world, and it’s all here. And just for the audience, a little spoiler alert, Guy is one serious badass when it comes to opening the heart. And when you open the heart, all bets are off on what you’re going to experience, just like what we are experiencing right now, brother.

Guy:
Yeah. Uh, w- nothing excites me more than bringing people together in a, in a space and meeting new versions of themselves, really. And I’ve never come to the States like this before, so I’m excited. And to spend three days out in the desert in a sacred space where we get to commune, open our hearts, and meet those versions of ourselves, like, beyond our imagination.

That’s what it is, right? It’s … This is where the, the actual experience of perception becomes the real tangible thing, and w- we get to witness it. So I know … I can speak for Matt, who we run the events over here with as well, you know. A- and he’s American, by the way, so it’s like a homecoming for him. But we’re excited.

W- it’s.. Yeah, it’s gonna be phenomenal. So if you’re listening to this and there’s a part of you that’s lighting up, going right now, “Holy moly, I wanna come and hang out with these guys for the three days,” th- then honor that. Come join us. We’ll be there. Uh, end of October

San:
End of October, all the, all the information will be in the description. You can come and sign up and go through, um, your transformation. That really is a But hey, you meet it where you’re at right now,

Guy:
Of course

San:
that all those versions are going to go right back into the wood chipper. uh, be prepared. These boys from Down Under, they, they, they’re… I’m, I’m just gonna do it. The thunder from Down Under, brother. It’s coming.

Guy:
Right.

San:
coming hard. And that really is, there’s so much truth to what Matt and Guy bring to, to the community. uh, I, I like to feel like I’m a facilitator also of that juice. when we put it together,

Guy:
yeah

San:
very crazy things take place

Guy:
You know, and one thing I want to say for people listening as well, because I used to think along, like my, let my mind get in the way and think about these things and, and it’s like, it doesn’t matter where you are on your journey. It really doesn’t. It doesn’t matter if you’re, if you’re just stepping on the path, you’ve been on the path a long time, whatever, whatever story we have that we’ve told ourselves, you know, the only thing that really matters is an openness and willingness to, to explore and lean into this, and that’s it.

And then if you bring those, those ingredients, then anything’s possible. It really is, you know. Doesn’t matter how old you are, how young, you know, what age, what sex, what you’ve told yourself, what your job is, what your day job is. None of it matters when you come to a place like this, and nobody cares. One thing that I love more than anything is nobody really…

When you start hanging out with heart-centered people that want to explore, nobody asks you really what you do for a living, how much you earn, this and that, identity and that. You just, like the judgments, they just fall away or the, the things that we tell ourselves and we really just connect to, to another brother or sister from a heart and soul level, and we see them for the, the beautiful person that they are. And for me, that’s, that’s magic. Magic. Yeah.

San:
you speak with your heart all the time, brother. You know, I, I, I to contain, you know, a level of stability, but no, it’s an unraveling because you bring the juice, and it’s just … It feels so good. You can’t turn away from it. You just wanna run into it more and more, and that’s what an open heart does, and it’s not a, a, a, a, a version that is, uh, signaling some type of virtue. That’s the true path that Guy’s been on in, in all the time that I’ve known him in this lifetime.

The man is a man of giving and allowing and pure surrender, and that’s what you experience when you’re in his presence. you know, for the people that are s- sensory perceptive, which are most of our audience, either yours or mine, people feel into these conversations because they’re so poked. When you experience it face to face, there’s this other level of, um, that comes with it, you recognize you have really come to a place where going to meet myself today, and it’s whole, and it’s truthful, and there’s no distortion. There’s no manipulation. There’s no limitation to that. And the, the, the energy speaks louder than words, that’s the stuff that, uh, Guy and Matt bring, and it’s I don’t know. It’s beyond the beyond. I love it. I absolutely love it. I’m, I’m so excited. I can’t wait spend some

Guy:
Me.

San:
you, brother.

Guy:
Yeah, me too, man. Me too. It’s been a long time coming. It’s been a long time coming. Do you have any, uh, final words for the, for the listeners before we, we make this a wrap?

San:
Uh, just, you know, go back to the basics and recognize that all the needs that you have will be met if you just a moment and breathe in and breathe out.

Guy:
Hmm.

San:
so redundant, but the truth be known is the more complication that you make into your, your spiritual journey of enlightenment, it just, it becomes more restrictive. You stay in that state of contraction instead of expansion, and it comes right down to the respiration is, is one of the most potent tools to that entry.

Guy:
Amen to that, man. Amen to that. San, love you, brother. Thank you so much for coming on the show, and, uh, w- we’ll be hanging out in person

San:
Yeah. It’s gonna be a banger. It’s gonna be awesome.

Guy:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, come join us. Come and meet us in person. It’d be awesome. All right, my man. Thank you so much.

San:
All right,

Guy:
Bye